Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps  (Read 419548 times)

Enki

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5525 on: December 31, 2019, 11:24:40 AM »
The parliamentary model used at Westminster is probably about 200 years old. It functions because the FPTP model encourages just two blocs of interest in the House of Commons - Her Majesty's Government and Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. The Oppositions job is merely to oppose. Because the election system practically eliminates other varying views we end up with a system that is practically totalitarian - except that every five years the opportunity is given for the other side to play dictator for a while.

Surely, the rational way for a modern state to be governed is by a representative assembly trying to achieve objectives by argument and co-operation - not by steamrolling over a single impotent opposing voice. Let us have a new Parliament building which doesn't try to imitate medieval church choir stalls and fill it by using a voting system which permits a variety of voices to be heard and decisions to be obtained by consensus.

And as for a "parliament which simply ceased to function properly" - when did we ever have one of those?


Thank you for your response,  Harrowby.

Just a few points:

My opinion is that any democratic system of voting has both strengths and weaknesses, whether it be FPTP, PR or whatever. You quite rightly state one of the major weaknesses of FPTP, although I would not go along with you in suggesting that we end up with a system which is 'practically totalitarian'. I have seen no sign whatever that any dominant party has been so centralised and controlling that it requires complete subservience and bans all opposition. These are, after all, the hallmarks of a totalitarian regime. A huge safeguard against the above is the fact that any government can be replaced every 5 years or so by the will of the people who wish to vote.

My own personal preference would be something along the lines of AV because that at least allows MPs to be chosen who represent their constituencies while allowing the preferences of voters to be taken more into consideration than FPTP. Indeed, I voted for AV in the referendum of 2011, but, unfortunately, 2/3 of those who voted, voted against. I was quite willing to accept the result of such a democratic vote, of course.

It would be most pleasing if your idea that parties could come together in a rational and co-operative way to reflect the  wishes of the voters could lead to a spirit of consensus in reaching decisions. I fear that your view is too idealistic, and would be extremely hard to achieve, as most parties seek power to pursue their ends. Even in the last 3 years, when there was opportunity for the varying groups to come together, there were clear differences which led to stultifying votes where nothing but Brexit delay was achieved.

As far as your idea of a new parliament building divest of the old trappings of antiquated power goes,I have long been in favour of such an idea. I would not have it in London however, but somewhere more central to the UK, perhaps in Manchester for instance. For me this would clearly give the signal that the seat of power did not rest in the South, but was for the whole of the U.K. something which has been lacking for a long time.

Finally, I think that you have misinterpreted my statement a'parliament which simply ceased to function properly'. I quite accept that my use of the word 'properly' is open to various interpretations, and for that I take responsibility and apologise. A much better word in the context of what I was saying would be 'effectively'. So, to answer your question, when did we have a parliament which governed effectively?, I can think of Macmillan, Blair, Thatcher to name but three.

PS.

If you haven't seen the series of Reith Lectures 2019 by Jonathan Sumption on Law and Politics, you might find them interesting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 11:31:20 AM by enki »
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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5526 on: December 31, 2019, 11:30:23 AM »
Just a note to both HH and enki - really enjoying the discussion.

Udayana

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5527 on: December 31, 2019, 02:24:54 PM »
Could an Ancient Athenian Fix Britain?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000b4qp

"Comedian and classicist Jon Harvey explores modern British democracy through an ancient Athenian lens. If there's one thing we can all agree on it's that our state is in a state - could the world’s original democrats help us right the ship?"

Naturally there are any number of different systems that can be employed to try and ensure a democratic state. All have inherent flaws and helpful or unhelpful features. Within the EU, each state organises and evolves its own constitution, and the EU as a whole provides a democratic framework for its own institutions. The principles of human rights and subsidiarity ensure that state democracy is enhanced not undermined.

Although there are many flaws in the UK constitution and procedures, the electorate tends to vote against change and for a simple contention between competing interests. I think what we are seeing, and what lead to deadlock in Parliament, is not a failure of democracy but a failure of leadership.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 02:38:29 PM by Udayana »
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Udayana

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5528 on: December 31, 2019, 02:36:37 PM »
Agree it needs reform, but you have to play to the rules at the time.

My point is that if the remain side, many of whom voted for and supported a referendum, had accepted the result they had the numbers to do Norway+.

They split and some gambled on another referendum.

Why should an MP that supports remaining in the EU, vote for anything other than remaining if a remain vote is an option? That they would vote for remain does not mean that they cannot vote for a referendum or even the start of withdrawal negotiations following a referendum - or for a second refendum if they think that would provide a democratic resolution.

Norway+ was not on offer in any parliamentary vote - and could not have been without prior agreement of other nations. It may well be true that it would have been best for the UK for the May WA to be passed and trade negotiations continued on a better basis - but the failure to agree it was not due to gambling by remainer MPs - but a failure of politics and leadership by both May and Corbyn, both struggling to hold together divided parties.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5529 on: December 31, 2019, 07:02:50 PM »

Thank you for your response,  Harrowby.

Just a few points:

My opinion is that any democratic system of voting has both strengths and weaknesses, whether it be FPTP, PR or whatever. You quite rightly state one of the major weaknesses of FPTP, although I would not go along with you in suggesting that we end up with a system which is 'practically totalitarian'. I have seen no sign whatever that any dominant party has been so centralised and controlling that it requires complete subservience and bans all opposition. These are, after all, the hallmarks of a totalitarian regime. A huge safeguard against the above is the fact that any government can be replaced every 5 years or so by the will of the people who wish to vote.



Thank you for your response, enki. I don't think that we are very far apart. I agree that Parliament should be taken out of London - but not to another major city. How about Milton Keynes?  ::)

Somewhere - the back of my brain - I recall a senior politician (I think) describing the United Kingdom as an "elected dictatorship". You say that you have seen no"sign whatever that any dominant party has been so centralised and controlling that it requires complete subservience and bans all opposition"? Then how would you categorise Alexander Johnson's expulsion of over a score of Conservative MPs who excercised their right to represent what they considered to be in the best interests of their constituents?
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Enki

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5530 on: December 31, 2019, 09:35:26 PM »
Thank you for your response, enki. I don't think that we are very far apart. I agree that Parliament should be taken out of London - but not to another major city. How about Milton Keynes?  ::)

Somewhere - the back of my brain - I recall a senior politician (I think) describing the United Kingdom as an "elected dictatorship". You say that you have seen no"sign whatever that any dominant party has been so centralised and controlling that it requires complete subservience and bans all opposition"? Then how would you categorise Alexander Johnson's expulsion of over a score of Conservative MPs who excercised their right to represent what they considered to be in the best interests of their constituents?

Cheers and a Happy New Year to you,  Harrowby.

I agree, I don't think that we are too far apart. In fact I have some sympathy for your ideas.  Unfortunately, the Brexit thing tends to divide people rather than bring them together.

I still think that Milton Keynes is too close to London. I would prefer somewhere more central, and I see no reason why it should not be in or close to an important city. Another suggestion I could make would be Birmingham, for instance. However this is just wishful thinking, as I cannot see it happening, at least in my lifetime.

How would I categorise  Boris Johnson's 'expulsion of over a score of Conservative MPs'?  Well, actually, they still represented their constituencies, they were free to express their views and vote in Parliament as they wished as independents. They had the whip withheld, meaning that they were no longer regarded as part of the Conservative Party in the HofC. Since then, 10 out of the 21 have had the whip reinstated, and many have since stood down or not been re-elected. I see no reason to think that this represents some sort of attempt to silence all opposition in the HofC. which would surely be a prerequisite for a totalitarian state. Indeed, because of Boris's weakened position, he wished to hold a General Election as soon as possible, which I would have thought is a reasonably democratic way forward, if you are unable to govern because of party splits. Futhermore, almost the same position was reached under John Major, when he withheld the whip from the party rebels who wanted Brexit(not known as that, then, of course). He too threatened an election, and put himself up for re-election as leader(which he convincingly won). I didn't see John Major as some type of totalitarian dictator! I don't see Boris Johnson in that category either.



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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5531 on: January 01, 2020, 01:16:17 AM »
Quote
I don't see Boris Johnson in that category either.

Give him time.

Lets see what he (or rather Cummings) does with the supreme Court and the Civil Service. And then watch the moves made to redraw boundaries of constituencies. Not that that last doesn't need looking at, but only imo in conjunction with a move away from FPTP.
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Roses

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5532 on: January 01, 2020, 01:44:47 PM »
I agree that Parliament should be taken out of London - but not to another major city. How about Milton Keynes?  ::)

Why Milton Keynes?
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SteveH

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5533 on: January 01, 2020, 01:47:36 PM »
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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5534 on: January 01, 2020, 01:49:15 PM »
Why should an MP that supports remaining in the EU, vote for anything other than remaining if a remain vote is an option? That they would vote for remain does not mean that they cannot vote for a referendum or even the start of withdrawal negotiations following a referendum - or for a second refendum if they think that would provide a democratic resolution.

Norway+ was not on offer in any parliamentary vote - and could not have been without prior agreement of other nations.
Many remain MP's went the way of Kinnock & Nick Boles and supported Norway+, if all remain MP's had joined with them then there would have been a majority. It was not on offer at this time since it can only be negotiated during transition period.   

Quote
It may well be true that it would have been best for the UK for the May WA to be passed and trade negotiations continued on a better basis - but the failure to agree it was not due to gambling by remainer MPs - but a failure of politics and leadership by both May and Corbyn, both struggling to hold together divided parties.

"the failure to agree it was not due to gambling by remainer MPs", all of the failure I agree was not down to just this, they bear some responsibility.

The attitude was evident on this forum, I tried to get people into supporting Norway+ or at least discussing it, just got the usual range of replies, 'X procedure will end Brexit', 'your stupid', 'lets have another referendum', 'whataboutery', etc.
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Udayana

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5535 on: January 01, 2020, 03:25:08 PM »
Many remain MP's went the way of Kinnock & Nick Boles and supported Norway+, if all remain MP's had joined with them then there would have been a majority. It was not on offer at this time since it can only be negotiated during transition period.   

"the failure to agree it was not due to gambling by remainer MPs", all of the failure I agree was not down to just this, they bear some responsibility.

The attitude was evident on this forum, I tried to get people into supporting Norway+ or at least discussing it, just got the usual range of replies, 'X procedure will end Brexit', 'your stupid', 'lets have another referendum', 'whataboutery', etc.

Not from me... although I was fence sitting.

I would prefer the UK remain in the EU and, given a choice, would always vote remain but it was obvious from the day after the referendum that we could not stay in - even if another referendum resulted in 52-48 the other way, making a success of EU membership really needs a substantial majority, 60-40 say, in favour.

Our politicians have never understood this - one reason we ratified a series of treaties never put to the electorate even though most UK failures and problems were routinely blamed on Europe.

Norway+ or other EFTA type deal could only have been negotiated in a transition period after leaving - and still could be, assuming it was/is actually possible (which I doubt).
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Gordon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5536 on: January 01, 2020, 03:59:37 PM »
Given where we are my view is more pragmatic: we have to hope that Boris and his crew of Tory fuckwits make a mess of Brexit, which on form must be a possibility, so as to increase the possibility of the breakup of the UK.

It seems clear that the majority of the electorate in the the nation of England want the Tories and want Brexit - so let them have both, and if Scotland wants out then we need the option to leave them to it.

jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5537 on: January 01, 2020, 07:22:02 PM »
All future UK governments will be more accountable since anything controlled by the EU will now be controlled by the UK government.
Can you name some things that were controlled by the EU? I can think of some, but I can't think of any where it will be better after the UK has full control over them. Furthermore, I don't see the British government improving any of them with respect to people like you and me. For example, the labour laws are more likely to be changed to make it easier to exploit workers rather than harder.

Don't forget that "the EU" includes the UK until the 31st January. The UK is part of the EU law making process. Soon it will not be, but EU laws will continue to affect us unless we stop trading with them altogether.
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5538 on: January 01, 2020, 07:31:35 PM »
So there will still be an EU-UK relationship, but you think it is going to be bad. So wouldn't it better to campaign for a closer relationship?
You voted against a closer relationship remember.
Quote
I don't need to justify my position
So it's basically "we won, so shut up"

Quote
I've explained my position and invited you to debate the future relationship.

No you haven't. I've asked you and Ippy how we will benefit and so far the closest either of you have given to an answer is your assertion that I might not benefit plus your hand wavy claim that you think we'll be better off with self determination, whatever that means. Against that, I see British people's rights to work and live anywhere in the EU suddenly curtailed and a much worse relationship with the other countries in the world's biggest trading bloc plus obstacles to trading them and a border between the mainland UK and Northern Ireland.

Brexiteers have made everybody's lives a bit worse. Frankly, I think you bloody well do need to justify yourself.
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5539 on: January 01, 2020, 07:32:26 PM »
'delivered for PURELY party management purposes (Tory)',
Putting a word in caps does not change anything.
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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5540 on: January 02, 2020, 09:21:18 AM »
Can you name some things that were controlled by the EU? I can think of some, but I can't think of any where it will be better after the UK has full control over them. Furthermore, I don't see the British government improving any of them with respect to people like you and me. For example, the labour laws are more likely to be changed to make it easier to exploit workers rather than harder.

If labour laws were making business noncompetitive then a UK government can lower standards or vice versa. If the people are against this then they can get rid of that government.
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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5541 on: January 02, 2020, 09:32:02 AM »
You voted against a closer relationship remember.

Evasion noted.

Quote
So it's basically "we won, so shut up"

No, I do not have to justify my position to you since I'm not trying to change your mind with regard to leave/remain.

Quote
No you haven't. I've asked you and Ippy how we will benefit and so far the closest either of you have given to an answer is your assertion that I might not benefit plus your hand wavy claim that you think we'll be better off with self determination, whatever that means. Against that, I see British people's rights to work and live anywhere in the EU suddenly curtailed and a much worse relationship with the other countries in the world's biggest trading bloc plus obstacles to trading them and a border between the mainland UK and Northern Ireland.

Brexiteers have made everybody's lives a bit worse. Frankly, I think you bloody well do need to justify yourself.

This is not how democracy works, you could have changed my mind and I could then have changed the minds of others. If enough remainers did this then there may have been a different outcome.

If you were trying to change my mind then you didn't do a very good job, I got the impression you only wanted to score some points.

For what it is worth, I voted leave to have a more accountable government and thought Norway+ was a decent compromise and pretty good outcome. Norway+ now looks unlikely and the reason we won't get it is because remainers like you, didn't 'do' democracy.
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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5542 on: January 02, 2020, 09:41:16 AM »
You rabbiting on about Norway+ sounds like a political straw man that you have erected.

It is not clear how we would have arrived at that to me, given the forces that were driving the Brexit narrative.

I'm not looking for an argument I just don't see how you can posit Norway+ as having been a viable option at any time during this whole debacle.
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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5543 on: January 02, 2020, 10:58:51 AM »
...
This is not how democracy works, you could have changed my mind and I could then have changed the minds of others. If enough remainers did this then there may have been a different outcome.

If you were trying to change my mind then you didn't do a very good job, I got the impression you only wanted to score some points.

For what it is worth, I voted leave to have a more accountable government and thought Norway+ was a decent compromise and pretty good outcome. Norway+ now looks unlikely and the reason we won't get it is because remainers like you, didn't 'do' democracy.

I'm not getting this... how can you change someone's mind? All you can do is put forward arguments that you see as correct, if the other side are not listening to those there is not much that can be done, at least in a democratic system.

By your logic if remainers did not compromise and back N+ it is your fault as you didn't change their minds.

If May didn't go for N+ it is your fault for not changing her mind.

Now that the brexiters are in power if they don't opt for N+ it s your fault for not changing their minds.

If we don't agree that N+ is possible, it is your fault for not changing our minds!
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jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5544 on: January 02, 2020, 01:07:20 PM »
I'm not getting this... how can you change someone's mind? All you can do is put forward arguments that you see as correct, if the other side are not listening to those there is not much that can be done, at least in a democratic system.

They might not find the arguments compelling, so come up with better arguments?

Quote
By your logic if remainers did not compromise and back N+ it is your fault as you didn't change their minds.

If May didn't go for N+ it is your fault for not changing her mind.

Now that the brexiters are in power if they don't opt for N+ it s your fault for not changing their minds.

If we don't agree that N+ is possible, it is your fault for not changing our minds!

Yes I take some responsibility for us not getting Norway+, I could have written to my MP, put a more compelling case forward on twitter. I could have persuaded some on this forum to do the same.

What else is there to do, blame everyone else? - I'm not Jeremy! :)
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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5545 on: January 02, 2020, 01:15:09 PM »
You rabbiting on about Norway+ sounds like a political straw man that you have erected.

Not seeing how it is a straw man?

Quote
It is not clear how we would have arrived at that to me, given the forces that were driving the Brexit narrative.

I'm not looking for an argument I just don't see how you can posit Norway+ as having been a viable option at any time during this whole debacle.

Many Tory MP's would have supported Norway+.

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/12/nick-boles-demolishing-five-myths-about-norway-plus.html
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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5546 on: January 02, 2020, 01:43:14 PM »
Many Tory MP's would have supported Norway+.

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/12/nick-boles-demolishing-five-myths-about-norway-plus.html
Norway+ (whatever that even means) was never on offer so we cannot know whether MPs would have supported it as we are in the world of at least double (more likely triple) hypotheticals.

I suspect it unlikely that May's government would ever have supported this, or negotiated it, as it clearly broke pretty well all of her stated 'red lines'. Without government support there is no way it could ever have been proposed as the only deals that could have been formally put before  parliament were ones negotiated and supported by the government.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5547 on: January 02, 2020, 01:52:12 PM »
They might not find the arguments compelling, so come up with better arguments?

I don't think there were any compelling arguments on either side. It was a question of priorities and trade-offs. Once the referendum had been held any proposals by those who had argued for or supported Remain were dismissed as attempts to thwart "real brexit".

Quote
Yes I take some responsibility for us not getting Norway+, I could have written to my MP, put a more compelling case forward on twitter. I could have persuaded some on this forum to do the same.
...

The debates and votes in Parliament were on the withdrawal agreement (3 votes) and political declaration (2 of the 3)

N+ was not debated and could not be promised as an outcome of trade negotiations - especially once May had committed to resign as PM if the WA was passed - it had not even been suggested by the government as a possible destination.
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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5548 on: January 02, 2020, 09:17:36 PM »




N+ was not debated and could not be promised as an outcome of trade negotiations - especially once May had committed to resign as PM if the WA was passed - it had not even been suggested by the government as a possible destination.

It was debated and rejected.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/01/brexit-what-are-the-indicative-votes-mps-will-vote-on

Think of it this way possible outcomes were

1. WTO
2. Free Trade
3. Norway+
4. Another referendum

The outcome now looks like (2), those supporting (1) compromised to (2), (3) was never an option as not enough supporters of (4) were prepared to compromise.

If (4) supporters had been willing to compromise they had Boris like a puppet on a string they could have got that outcome, instead they supported an election and hoped for a hung parliament which would have meant another referendum.
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Udayana

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5549 on: January 03, 2020, 11:17:52 AM »
It was debated and rejected.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/01/brexit-what-are-the-indicative-votes-mps-will-vote-on

Think of it this way possible outcomes were

1. WTO
2. Free Trade
3. Norway+
4. Another referendum

The outcome now looks like (2), those supporting (1) compromised to (2), (3) was never an option as not enough supporters of (4) were prepared to compromise.

If (4) supporters had been willing to compromise they had Boris like a puppet on a string they could have got that outcome, instead they supported an election and hoped for a hung parliament which would have meant another referendum.

Sorry, had overlooked the indicative vote - but in any case it was entirely academic. MPs could vote both for Norway and 2nd ref. if they felt the outcomes were acceptable - at least Parliament would have been able to legislate for a  ref. whereas for Norway+ would have had to pass the WA first. There was no guarantee that the government and whoever was PM would want and be able to arrange a N+ deal.
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