Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps  (Read 419155 times)

Enki

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5725 on: February 19, 2020, 08:34:42 PM »
I wasn't aware I was trying to single anyone out, I was referring to leavers or remainers in general terms which I would have thought was obvious

You've just underlined this consistent, apparent wish to keep on arguing after the event by one faction or the other, perhaps you'd prefer one of the following words or expressions: wrong, silly, daft, not quiet there, a bit over the top, is there anything there you would like to use in place of my use of the word potty, please be my guest and use any word or expression you like that means something similar in general terms, of course.

Perhaps you could use something like bloody tiresome, as a substitute, be sure to please yourself enki.

ippy.

Oh Ippy,

My response seems to have gone straight over your head. Firstly, it was you who suggested that both sides are inclined to think the other side is'potty'. Indeed, you used the pronoun 'we' in suggesting this. Well, as a person who voted for Brexit, not to remain, please do not include myself in your 'we', or, better still,  next time use language with a little more clarity.

In my opinion, it does no good to label one side or the other as 'potty', or any of the other demeaning adjectives you suggest that I should use. It just has the effect of entrenching people in their positions. I have no wish to argue about Brexit at all now and would hope that a spirit of moving forward might prevail. Unfortunately, you, as well as others, seem to need to use such unpleasantries as 'potty' or 'not quite there' to continue the argument.

Well, so be it.(shrugs shoulders).
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ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5726 on: February 20, 2020, 11:56:17 AM »
Oh Ippy,

My response seems to have gone straight over your head. Firstly, it was you who suggested that both sides are inclined to think the other side is'potty'. Indeed, you used the pronoun 'we' in suggesting this. Well, as a person who voted for Brexit, not to remain, please do not include myself in your 'we', or, better still,  next time use language with a little more clarity.

In my opinion, it does no good to label one side or the other as 'potty', or any of the other demeaning adjectives you suggest that I should use. It just has the effect of entrenching people in their positions. I have no wish to argue about Brexit at all now and would hope that a spirit of moving forward might prevail. Unfortunately, you, as well as others, seem to need to use such unpleasantries as 'potty' or 'not quite there' to continue the argument.

Well, so be it.(shrugs shoulders).

You wrote: 'In my opinion, it does no good to label one side or the other as 'potty', I'll assume you were referencing the following: 'both sides, think the other side was potty and probably still do.

Looks like we both think something is going over the heads of each other, I hope you find the information I've passed on to your good self, above, is conveyed to you without a built in grammar lesson or any hint of patronising and at the same time void of any unpleasantness!

ippy.

Christine

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5727 on: February 20, 2020, 12:55:35 PM »
We've left and that's good enough for me, try someone else if you feel the need to argue about it and would be difficult to  persuade me the that the BBC was full of as many shining halo wearers working for  BBC as it appears to me that you seem to think there are.


Have you got any evidence that I think the BBC is full of 'many shining halo wearers'?  You seem quite keen on evidence in other discussions, but not this one.  I think I know why  :)


ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5728 on: February 20, 2020, 01:34:23 PM »
Have you got any evidence that I think the BBC is full of 'many shining halo wearers'?  You seem quite keen on evidence in other discussions, but not this one.  I think I know why  :)

I wouldn't have thought anything other than the fact the BBC is run by human beings therefore.

Much the same would apply to anything that's a sport of us wonderful, good looking, exemplary and deep thinking leave supporters too. 

I've got my tin hat on in readiness!!

Wouldn't that observation be somewhat obvious.

Enki

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5729 on: February 20, 2020, 04:05:47 PM »
You wrote: 'In my opinion, it does no good to label one side or the other as 'potty', I'll assume you were referencing the following: 'both sides, think the other side was potty and probably still do.

Looks like we both think something is going over the heads of each other, I hope you find the information I've passed on to your good self, above, is conveyed to you without a built in grammar lesson or any hint of patronising and at the same time void of any unpleasantness!

ippy.

As regards your first paragraph. I did say that, yes. It was in response to these words of yours:

Quote
not just you and I but over the whole spectrum of leavers and remainers we, both sides, think the other side was potty and probably still do.

Notice it includes the word 'we'.

I have no reason to change my opinion.

As regards your second paragraph, I don't find you at all patronising so please don't think it for one moment. As for the grammar lesson idea, what's that all about? And, to put your mind at ease, I don't find anything you have said in the post to which I am replying to be particularly unpleasant at all.
 :)
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ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5730 on: February 20, 2020, 04:35:59 PM »
As regards your first paragraph. I did say that, yes. It was in response to these words of yours:

Notice it includes the word 'we'.

I have no reason to change my opinion.

As regards your second paragraph, I don't find you at all patronising so please don't think it for one moment. As for the grammar lesson idea, what's that all about? And, to put your mind at ease, I don't find anything you have said in the post to which I am replying to be particularly unpleasant at all.
 :)

(we), referring to both sides, myself included.

(probably), not definitely.

Patronising but yes only mildly patronising, I wasn't referring to my own post.

Misunderstanding my use of (we) probably think each other potty' (PROBABLY THINK).

I only refer to these things where you seem to have misunderstood me, but if you did wish to be patronising, a semanticist, or anything else unpleasant please fire away the world is your oyster.

Regards, ippy.   

Enki

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5731 on: February 20, 2020, 05:06:39 PM »
(we), referring to both sides, myself included.

(probably), not definitely.

Patronising but yes only mildly patronising, I wasn't referring to my own post.

Misunderstanding my use of (we) probably think each other potty' (PROBABLY THINK).

I only refer to these things where you seem to have misunderstood me, but if you did wish to be patronising, a semanticist, or anything else unpleasant please fire away the world is your oyster.

Regards, ippy.   

Just to say that, as I have already stated, 'we' doesn't include myself, whether you think it was 'probable' or not that it should.

I didn't think your post was patronising, angry perhaps, but not patronising. I cerainly have not meant to be at all, but, if it helps you, then I apologise for anything that I have said which has suggested to you that I have taken a patronising attitude.

As regards your last sentence, whether you wish me to be or not, I certainly do not wish to be any of these things that you suggest, and that also includes your idea that I might use such words as 'wrong, silly, daft, not quiet there, a bit over the top' to label the other side ,instead of 'potty'.  I leave that to others.  :)
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5732 on: March 06, 2020, 01:24:01 PM »
Yay! We've spent more than £4 billion on Brexit so far.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51762243

Just to clarify, this is just actual administrative costs, not the cost to the country in trade opportunity and influence. That's going to be hundreds of billions.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5733 on: March 12, 2020, 10:43:09 AM »
Hang on .. I'm confused now .. surely the points based immigration scheme should be encouraging people in to do the jobs noone here wants to do, and stopping immigrants getting the high-skilled jobs, so Brits can do those?

Ippy, help!
I think many of those who voted leave just did not like the idea that EU rules meant that the British government had to pay towards EU political policies they disagreed with - the EU telling the less socialist-minded British what they could or could not do - you know - the whole sovereignty argument, especially when it came to uncontrolled immigration.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/mar/27/why-left-wrong-mass-immigration

The entrepreneurial leave-supporters still want access to and to exploit foreign markets but do not agree on the price they are being charged for that access and are trying to negotiate with the EU for a lower price for access. Much like they negotiate/ bargain/ exploit (?) workers to keep labour costs down to maximise profit and return on capital investment.

The entrepreneurial leave voters (focused on economics) seem to have found a way to exploit the sense of nationalism and conservatism of large parts of the population by persuading them to vote leave e.g. there was a Brexit argument that Britain can set its own VAT rates or abolish VAT and replace it with something else once it leaves the EU...even though it is highly unlikely that the government will abolish the lucrative VAT since they kept it at 20% even though EU VAT minimum rate is set at 15% and it would be an administrative nightmare to get rid of VAT.

Regarding the economically inactive, I think the calculation that many Brexiters may have made is that the economically inactive are a cost to the economically active. Taxes are spent on supporting the economically inactive that could instead be spent more productively on private sector contracts that grow the economy e.g. hiring private companies (with vastly inflated fees designed to maximise profits for directors and shareholders who will then spend that money in the economy). This does not really solve inequality but there will probably be a rise in real wages in certain industries as EU labour supply shrinks due to Brexit, which may tempt some of the economically inactive to retrain/ go back to work, which then frees up taxes to spend on those who really can't work.

If, as seems likely, the significant wage rise is in more skilled jobs where there are shortages, the private firms will either have to spend money investing heavily in training schemes for local unskilled workers or hire from abroad or invest heavily in AI and technology whereby they can maximise profits and economise on labour costs (in which case those local unskilled economically inactive will not reduce and will still need funding).

I heard someone on the radio the other day saying she is a supply teacher with a seriously compromised immune system who is scared that catching the coronavirus will mean she will have no income. The radio presenter said, given her medical condition, she should retrain as schools are known for spreading germs, and she replied that she can't retrain, that teaching is all she knows and it's in her bones.

That's a moral and therefore political question - what percentage of the population favours financially supporting people to maximise their personal happiness at the cost of economic productivity?

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Udayana

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5734 on: March 12, 2020, 03:09:44 PM »
...

Really, anyone might think brexit leaders were only looking out for their own pockets and have just conned half the country into helping fill them!
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5735 on: March 12, 2020, 05:02:11 PM »
Really, anyone might think brexit leaders were only looking out for their own pockets and have just conned half the country into helping fill them!
I don't know how much if it is a con.

If people don't want political union and want immigration controlled and the only way of doing it was to vote for Brexit, is it a con? Even if certain people will profit financially from giving voters what many of them seem to want? Maybe it's a temporary alignment of interests. If there had been other ways of achieving their aims maybe voters would have taken it. 

Entrepreneurs make money from identifying wants and exploiting opportunities - the possibility of eventually making profits is their incentive for taking risks with capital that may generate losses as well as profits. Maybe Brexit leaders saw an opportunity to exploit, and maybe some of them actually genuinely believed that political union and uncontrolled immigration was undesirable.
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Udayana

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5736 on: March 13, 2020, 09:10:25 AM »
I don't know how much if it is a con.

If people don't want political union and want immigration controlled and the only way of doing it was to vote for Brexit, is it a con? Even if certain people will profit financially from giving voters what many of them seem to want?   
...

It is the "mark's" desires that allow them to be hooked. People didn't want political union or immigration but now that "brexit is done", they will find that they don't get the changes to their lives they might have been expecting from it.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5737 on: March 13, 2020, 08:07:49 PM »
It is the "mark's" desires that allow them to be hooked. People didn't want political union or immigration but now that "brexit is done", they will find that they don't get the changes to their lives they might have been expecting from it.
We don’t know what changes they expect. Ippy, for example, refuses to tell us. I suspect it’s just a warm glow from the rebirth of the empire.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5738 on: April 13, 2020, 07:29:07 PM »
I cannot see how we can complete Brexit this year. Wasn't convinced we could do it before Covid 19 but not now.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5739 on: April 14, 2020, 07:58:01 AM »
I cannot see how we can complete Brexit this year. Wasn't convinced we could do it before Covid 19 but not now.

It seems to me that a consequence of Covid-19 is some kind of downscaling of Global trading. Perhaps countries will have to consider trying to do mass-production manufacturing themselves instead of relying on China. Perhaps this kind of activity could become regional rather than world-wide. Individually, European countries would not be capable of doing all the manufacturing activity to maintain their own economies but co-operation with neighbours would be feasible.

The framework already exists in Europe. Why not just stop the ludicrous Brexit process and work out a way of making Europe self-sufficient?
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Udayana

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5740 on: April 14, 2020, 10:19:26 AM »
It seems to me that a consequence of Covid-19 is some kind of downscaling of Global trading. Perhaps countries will have to consider trying to do mass-production manufacturing themselves instead of relying on China. Perhaps this kind of activity could become regional rather than world-wide. Individually, European countries would not be capable of doing all the manufacturing activity to maintain their own economies but co-operation with neighbours would be feasible.

The framework already exists in Europe. Why not just stop the ludicrous Brexit process and work out a way of making Europe self-sufficient?

This seems unrealistic. Given the world economy needs rebooting, we need to participate in any global, not European, solutions/systems.

Given that we have left the EU it doesn't make sense to continue or rejoin in their, most likely defunct, systems rather than set out on our non-EU or fresh path.
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5741 on: April 14, 2020, 01:21:27 PM »
It seems to me that a consequence of Covid-19 is some kind of downscaling of Global trading. Perhaps countries will have to consider trying to do mass-production manufacturing themselves instead of relying on China. Perhaps this kind of activity could become regional rather than world-wide. Individually, European countries would not be capable of doing all the manufacturing activity to maintain their own economies but co-operation with neighbours would be feasible.

The framework already exists in Europe. Why not just stop the ludicrous Brexit process and work out a way of making Europe self-sufficient?

That sounds horrendously protectionist, and problematic. There has been some discussion of 'near sourcing' in terms of using Eastern Europe more rather than China but it would need a very controlled approach, and could lead to many shortages both in near and mid term. I'm not sure the current EU structure is uo to it, and it would lead to lots of tensions as it would remove freedoms govts currently have.

I think we need to up the investment in 3d printing which is still somewhat of a sleeping tiger as a technology.

jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5742 on: April 14, 2020, 07:12:38 PM »
It seems to me that a consequence of Covid-19 is some kind of downscaling of Global trading. Perhaps countries will have to consider trying to do mass-production manufacturing themselves instead of relying on China. Perhaps this kind of activity could become regional rather than world-wide. Individually, European countries would not be capable of doing all the manufacturing activity to maintain their own economies but co-operation with neighbours would be feasible.

The framework already exists in Europe. Why not just stop the ludicrous Brexit process and work out a way of making Europe self-sufficient?
China is going to be one of the first countries to come back on line. by the time we are ready to start buying stuff again, China will be the easiest place to get it.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5743 on: April 14, 2020, 07:23:09 PM »
China will be the easiest place to get it.

Is it possible that the environmental cost of long distance delivery may become a factor?
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5744 on: April 14, 2020, 07:25:45 PM »
Is it possible that the environmental cost of long distance delivery may become a factor?
They weren't before. Why would they be after?
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Gordon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5745 on: May 02, 2020, 03:47:48 PM »

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5746 on: May 13, 2020, 09:09:16 PM »
Boris the liar promised there would be no checks on UK goods crossing the Irish Sea into NI - guess what.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/13/brexit-will-mean-checks-on-goods-crossing-irish-sea-government-admits

SteveH

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5747 on: May 17, 2020, 03:45:51 PM »
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5748 on: May 18, 2020, 04:27:29 PM »
Is it right that now the French and the Italians are going a bit anti EU?

Don't seem to hear that much about it on our media T V and Radio but apparently it is happening, come to that there's not that much of a mention about it in the press either?

ippy

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #5749 on: May 18, 2020, 04:37:39 PM »
Is it right that now the French and the Italians are going a bit anti EU?

Don't seem to hear that much about it on our media T V and Radio but apparently it is happening, come to that there's not that much of a mention about it in the press either?

ippy

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52666870