Brexit - the next steps

[jeremyp]

Yes j p, sovereignty completely justifies leaving on its own for me

But how does it benefit you? How does it benefit me? How does it benefit anybody except the politicians in Westminster?

I don't look down on remainers and I don't think remainers are simple minded either, I just think remainers got it wrong they're not necessarily bad people either.

How can you say the Remainers got it wrong when you can't even think of a single benefit of leaving?

[jeremyp]

Must be better than just handing over cash to Boris' mates for sticking in pins at random?

They probably are Boris's mates.

[ippy]

You still haven't mentioned a single actual benefit from Brexit. It is without doubt there will be a cost to the economy, even greater if, as now looks likely, we leave with no deal. In that case, there are likely to be food shortages (supermarkets are trying to stockpile but it's Xmas too) - certainly there will be price increases. People will lose their jobs - Nissan has said their Sunderland plant will not be viable with no trade deal. Other automotive plants will likely follow. As always, it's the poor who will suffer most - watch the Tory MPs and their rich friends get richer.

And for what exactly?

Sovereignty is an impossible unicorn and always was. Every trade deal we do takes away some sovereignty because it comes with obligations that must be met - it's only blind hatred of the EU that is preventing us doing a deal with them because of the idiotic prejudice of the Brexit extremists who will gladly give up sovereignty to do a deal with (for example) the USA. WTO rules have to be followed even if we never do another trade deal with anybody.

You seem to have underlined the contents of my post in this post of yours, N T S.

ippy.

[jeremyp]

You seem to have underlined the contents of my post in this post of yours, N T S.

ippy.

And you have underlined the complete emptiness of your position.

[ippy]

j p, go back to the previous post of mine you're responding to for your answer to this lot you've pointed in my direction, 'How can you say the Remainers got it wrong when you can't even think of a single benefit of leaving?'

ippy.

[Stranger]

You seem to have underlined the contents of my post in this post of yours, N T S.

And you still cannot point to any advantage to leaving. Even your one stated reason (sovereignty) is vacuous because we can't have it anyway. We'll be giving away to the WTO and every other country with which we do trade deals and with every international treaty we enter into.

You seem to be willing to make real people suffer real losses for your impossible fantasy.

[ippy]

And you still cannot point to any advantage to leaving. Even your one stated reason (sovereignty) is vacuous because we can't have it anyway. We'll be giving away to the WTO and every other country with which we do trade deals and with every international treaty we enter into.

You seem to be willing to make real people suffer real losses for your impossible fantasy.

If you've read any of my other posts you should be able to see my angle and sorry but I probably for as long as we both live this is one subject we're never going to agree with each other.

The sorry is for not agreeing with you and is certainly not intended to be an apology  for being a leaver.

I'm sure you're a perfectly decent person we just don't agree on this, that's all.

ippy.

[Stranger]

If you've read any of my other posts you should be able to see my angle and sorry but I probably for as long as we both live this is one subject we're never going to agree with each other.

The thing is that your attitude to this is about the same as Nicolas Marks' towards science. You refuse to even listen to the actual arguments, let alone engage with the logic of the situation.

[Roses]

I cannot see that leaving the EU is any benefit to the UK, just the opposite.

[ippy]

The thing is that your attitude to this is about the same as Nicolas Marks' towards science. You refuse to even listen to the actual arguments, let alone engage with the logic of the situation.

Yes, with a small difference that I keep on reminding people that send posts like this one of yours that you can look and perhaps find your cannon fodder elsewhere.

Again as I wrote in a previous post I would be equally as bitter if the vote had gone the other way, I don't think remainers are a bunch of thick gullible dim whited naive idiots, I just think they've got it wrong nothing more than that.

Can you really see leavers and remainers agreeing with each other?

ippy

[ippy]

I cannot see that leaving the EU is any benefit to the UK, just the opposite.

I cannot see that remaining in the EU is any benefit to the UK, just the opposite.

ippy.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, with a small difference that I keep on reminding people that send posts like this one of yours that you can look and perhaps find your cannon fodder elsewhere.

Again as I wrote in a previous post I would be equally as bitter if the vote had gone the other way, I don't think remainers are a bunch of thick gullible dim whited naive idiots, I just think they've got it wrong nothing more than that.

Can you really see leavers and remainers agreeing with each other?

ippy

yes, Nick.

[Nearly Sane]

I cannot see that remaining in the EU is any benefit to the UK, just the opposite.

ippy.

Ok, Nick

[Stranger]

Yes, with a small difference that I keep on reminding people that send posts like this one of yours that you can look and perhaps find your cannon fodder elsewhere.

Again as I wrote in a previous post I would be equally as bitter if the vote had gone the other way, I don't think remainers are a bunch of thick gullible dim whited naive idiots, I just think they've got it wrong nothing more than that.

Can you really see leavers and remainers agreeing with each other?

I cannot see that remaining in the EU is any benefit to the UK, just the opposite.

All of which is just the same blind faith that Nicolas shows and with just as little in the way of actual argument.

Remaining in the EU would benefit our economy and save UK jobs. It allows seamless trade across the region allowing for just-in-time manufacturing and the ability for goods made in the UK to sell into the whole EU without tariffs. It would retain our rights to live and work anywhere in the EU. It would help to keep our standards of food safety, workers rights, consumer rights, and many other standards, high. It would make us part of a large trading block that can stand up to the USA and China, rather than the tiny UK having to grovel for deals by itself. It makes us a part of Europe-wide security data sharing, helping to prevent terrorism and organised crime. It makes us part of collaborative projects in science and technology. It regulates things like data roaming charges across the entire region, because it has the clout to impose those standards on the technology companies. And, so on, and so on.

Your turn.

[Udayana]

...
Remaining in the EU would benefit our economy and save UK jobs. It allows seamless trade across the region allowing for just-in-time manufacturing and the ability for goods made in the UK to sell into the whole EU without tariffs. It would retain our rights to live and work anywhere in the EU. It would help to keep our standards of food safety, workers rights, consumer rights, and many other standards, high. It would make us part of a large trading block that can stand up to the USA and China, rather than the tiny UK having to grovel for deals by itself. It makes us a part of Europe-wide security data sharing, helping to prevent terrorism and organised crime. It makes us part of collaborative projects in science and technology. It regulates things like data roaming charges across the entire region, because it has the clout to impose those standards on the technology companies. And, so on, and so on.
...

Agree with all that - indeed, am sure that leaving will prove to be a terrible mistake.

But - there could be benefits in some areas. Eg. The CAP has caused any number of problems, being free from it may enable a better approach to farming:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/30/uk-farmers-reform-subsidies-british-agriculture

Though, there is still the issue of trusting this UK gov. and farmers to actually bring in any changes in a reasonable, competent and equitable way.

[Stranger]

Agree with all that - indeed, am sure that leaving will prove to be a terrible mistake.

But - there could be benefits in some areas. Eg. The CAP has caused any number of problems, being free from it may enable a better approach to farming:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/30/uk-farmers-reform-subsidies-british-agriculture

Though, there is still the issue of trusting this UK gov. and farmers to actually bring in any changes in a reasonable, competent and equitable way.

Yes. I don't think anybody would claim the EU (or an political body for that matter) is perfect and without problems, it's just that the advantages of membership far outweigh the problems. Also, as as member, we have had, and could have continued to have, significant influence within it.

[Harrowby Hall]

Right, ippy. instead of looking at this matter from a national "sovereignty" point of view, let's consider it from a personal point of view.

Can you provide us with details of any aspect of membership of the EU which has resulted in you personally being materially disadvantaged? And what was the form of this disadvantage?

[ippy]

Right, ippy. instead of looking at this matter from a national "sovereignty" point of view, let's consider it from a personal point of view.

Can you provide us with details of any aspect of membership of the EU which has resulted in you personally being materially disadvantaged? And what was the form of this disadvantage?

Try somebody else H H.

ippy.

[Stranger]

Try somebody else H H.

Yes, just like Nicholas Marks, your blind faith can't stand to be directly challenged, so you have to ignore anybody who tries.

[Nearly Sane]

This chimes


https://thecritic.co.uk/my-brexit-hell/

[ippy]

Yes, just like Nicholas Marks, your blind faith can't stand to be directly challenged, so you have to ignore anybody who tries.

Two things, remainers and leavers have very little in common where Brexit's concerned, if anything, please feel free to look elsewhere for a whipping boy, (no not that type of whipping boy).

ippy.

[Stranger]

Two things, remainers and leavers have very little in common where Brexit's concerned, if anything, please feel free to look elsewhere for a whipping boy, (no not that type of whipping boy).

The difference here though, is that the remainers here are willing to give reasons and you're not. Which makes the divide more akin to blind faith (you and Nicolas) versus reasoning.

[ippy]

The difference here though, is that the remainers here are willing to give reasons and you're not. Which makes the divide more akin to blind faith (you and Nicolas) versus reasoning.

I can see why this would look like that to a remainer,

Nicks, posts all spouting nonsense.

And any post made by any leaver would, more than likely, sound like one of Nicks nonsense posts to a remainer

Yes I can see the thinking behind that idea and making that comparison, yes I see what it is you're getting at.

ippy.

[Harrowby Hall]

This is what you have written in one of your justifiable responses to the gibberish being spoutd by Nicholas Marks. ippy.

There is nothing wrong with saying you haven't got an evidential answer and then explain why you believe in spite of the lack of any verifiable evidence.

This is a question that I asked you a short while ago:

Can you provide us with details of any aspect of membership of the EU which has resulted in you personally being materially disadvantaged? And what was the form of this disadvantage?

This was your response:

Try somebody else H H.

Now, instead of getting annoyed, do you think that you could answer the question that I posed?  So far, your statements about Brexit have appeared to be articles of faith rather than reasoned argument. Or does the principle you apply to Nick not actually apply to any of your own postings?

[jeremyp]

j p, go back to the previous post of mine you're responding to for your answer to this lot you've pointed in my direction, 'How can you say the Remainers got it wrong when you can't even think of a single benefit of leaving?'

ippy.

You keep complaining about the gap between us but you are not dong anything to try to narrow it.

The truth is that you know there are no benefits to Brexit. You'd just rather have British people telling you what to do and screwing up the country than foreign people. If you would admit that that is your only argument, we can get on to discuss why it's based on false premises.