Brexit - the next steps

[jeremyp]

Now, instead of getting annoyed, do you think that you could answer the question that I posed?  So far, your statements about Brexit have appeared to be articles of faith rather than reasoned argument. Or does the principle you apply to Nick not actually apply to any of your own postings?

Of course he can't answer the question. His reasons for leaving the EU are all ideological. He can't point to any real benefits because there aren't any and he knows it. He just basically doesn't like the idea of foreigners having a say in how we should run our country.

[Stranger]

You'd just rather have British people telling you what to do and screwing up the country than foreign people.

It's not even as if we'll achieve that though. Every trade deal and every international treaty involves giving up sovereignty. Even if we leave with no deal at all, as Michael Heseltine has said, "Sovereignty over the rules will simply transfer from Brussels to the WTO head office in Geneva." Brexiteers are chasing an impossible unicorn and they don't care how many jobs are lost or how much it costs our economy.

[jeremyp]

It's not even as if we'll achieve that though. Every trade deal and every international treaty involves giving up sovereignty. Even if we leave with no deal at all, as Michael Heseltine has said, "Sovereignty over the rules will simply transfer from Brussels to the WTO head office in Geneva." Brexiteers are chasing an impossible unicorn and they don't care how many jobs are lost or how much it costs our economy.

It isn't just about trade though. There are other areas over which the EU has some jurisdiction. Immigration is the obvious one, also one of the laws about rich people being able to move money around to avoid paying tax is quite significant to Brexiteers - well, the really rich ones, not the ones like ippy.

[ippy]

This is what you have written in one of your justifiable responses to the gibberish being spoutd by Nicholas Marks. ippy.

This is a question that I asked you a short while ago:

This was your response:

Now, instead of getting annoyed, do you think that you could answer the question that I posed?  So far, your statements about Brexit have appeared to be articles of faith rather than reasoned argument. Or does the principle you apply to Nick not actually apply to any of your own postings?

Yes you're right but I have explained many times the reason there was a referendum was because of the gulf between leave and remain it wouldn't matter what any leaver wrote it'd be like throwing raw meat to the sharks or visa versa a remainer.

So far I think I've soft peddled on remainers even though it can be tempting sometimes, again I don't see remainers as a bunch of idiots that are incapable of thinking for themselves, I just think remaining wasn't the right decision, they got it wrong that's all.

Going by some news on YouTube about an hour ago, 12 ish, it looks like no deal is now on.

I have no intention to discuss brexit here because of how contentious and almost war like it is and believe it or not I enjoy the company of most posters on this forum, including the ones I differ with for most of the time.   

ippy.

[ippy]

You keep complaining about the gap between us but you are not dong anything to try to narrow it.

The truth is that you know there are no benefits to Brexit. You'd just rather have British people telling you what to do and screwing up the country than foreign people. If you would admit that that is your only argument, we can get on to discuss why it's based on false premises.

See my post 5953 to H H.

ippy.

[Stranger]

So far I think I've soft peddled on remainers even though it can be tempting sometimes...

I don't think I believe you. I think you have absolutely nothing to say to us because you know there are no actual advantages to leaving, you know that it will cause real people real harm and that you can't justify that in any rational way because the only reason you want it is the irrational and impossible (not to mention worthless) ideal of 'sovereignty'.

[Roses]

I don't think I believe you. I think you have absolutely nothing to say to us because you know there are no actual advantages to leaving, you know that it will cause real people real harm and that you can't justify that in any rational way because the only reason you want it is the irrational and impossible (not to mention worthless) ideal of 'sovereignty'.

Well said.

[ippy]

I don't think I believe you. I think you have absolutely nothing to say to us because you know there are no actual advantages to leaving, you know that it will cause real people real harm and that you can't justify that in any rational way because the only reason you want it is the irrational and impossible (not to mention worthless) ideal of 'sovereignty'.

It's perfectly legitimate for you to think whatever you like N T S.

ippy

[jakswan]

I don't think I believe you. I think you have absolutely nothing to say to us because you know there are no actual advantages to leaving, you know that it will cause real people real harm and that you can't justify that in any rational way because the only reason you want it is the irrational and impossible (not to mention worthless) ideal of 'sovereignty'.

Maybe he as nothing to say because the debate is over we are leaving.

I'm sure a lot of remainers can't wait to have some sense of victory if things don't work out, maybe that is why most have focused on moaning about it instead of trying to get the best sort of Brexit possible?

[Stranger]

Maybe he as nothing to say because the debate is over we are leaving.

That might work if he didn't keep on bringing up the subject.

I'm sure a lot of remainers can't wait to have some sense of victory if things don't work out, maybe that is why most have focused on moaning about it instead of trying to get the best sort of Brexit possible?

How are we supposed to help get the best deal? Fuckwit Johnson and his band of incompetent wankers are the only people who can do that.

I hope we do get a deal, pretty much anything, no matter how pathetic will be better than the catastrophe of no deal but that won't stop it from costing the economy and causing job losses.

[jeremyp]

Maybe he as nothing to say because the debate is over we are leaving.

The debate is not over. The UK is eventually going to rejoin the EU.

I'm sure a lot of remainers can't wait to have some sense of victory if things don't work out, maybe that is why most have focused on moaning about it instead of trying to get the best sort of Brexit possible?

Ha ha. That is hilarious. The ship to the best sort of Brexit possible sailed a long time ago. The best chance now is to get some sort of crappy trade deal but it looks just as likely that, in order to satisfy BoJo's ego, we'll end up with the worst sort of Brexit possible.

The Brexiteers have royally fucked up this country and every single one of you bears some of the blame.

[Roses]

I am sure the Brexit nitwits will blame the remainers if there is no deal, which is likely to have dire consequences for the UK.

[Aruntraveller]

I am sure the Brexit nitwits will blame the remainers if there is no deal, which is likely to have dire consequences for the UK.

Nothing so sure as that, LR.

[ippy]

I am sure the Brexit nitwits will blame the remainers if there is no deal, which is likely to have dire consequences for the UK.

The so called by you, nitwits, will be managing without a deal and I don't remember reading or hearing anywhere that leaving was going to be a cake walk.

Even without taking the result of the referendum into consideration surely an eighty plus seats result at the last election as well as never before labour seats going over to the conservatives, this must have been conveying something or the other to you.

There must be a lot of thick people, according to the subtle clues you give from time to time, thickos that don't want to be a part of 'an ever closer union'.

I'm not particularly that keen on Boris either much the same as you but surely you can see going by the large number of seats they gained it was telling you how much of a minority the super intelligent, all seeing remainers were/are.

As I have to repeat each time I write here there's no point discussing this contentious subject that's why we had the referendum and why I don't see any point in arguing with anyone here because the remainers and leavers will, I'm convinced will always be staying entrenched on their chosen sides, forever intransigent with their own beliefs whatever argument offered by an opponent. 

Regards L R, ippy.

[Gordon]

Even without taking the result of the referendum into consideration surely an eighty plus seats result at the last election as well as never before labour seats going over to the conservatives, this must have been conveying something or the other to you.

You do realise, ippy, that the electorate in Scotland voted for neither Brexit nor the Tories, so all it conveys to me is that the Scottish electorate is effectively being disenfranchised by the weight of numbers of the electorate in England - there is a solution for that though.

There must be a lot of thick people, according to the subtle clues you give from time to time, thickos that don't want to be a part of 'an ever closer union'.

And on the back of this there is another Union that now needs dissolving: so I do hope Brexit is an utter disaster (which seems likely given those who are 'masterminding' it), since that would perhaps hasten the end of the UK.

[Stranger]

The so called by you, nitwits, will be managing without a deal and I don't remember reading or hearing anywhere that leaving was going to be a cake walk.

For fuck's sake, were you even paying attention during the leave campaign? Quite apart from the big lie on the side of the bus (£350 million a week for the NHS), we have:-

"Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history." - Liam Fox

"The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want." - Michael Gove

"Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards." - John Redwood

"It will be so easy to negotiate a trade deal, and of course, it's in the European Union's interest, just as it is in ours." - Paul Nuttal

"A trade deal with the EU could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee." - Gerard Batten

I got bored after I'd collected those but there are plenty more if you want to look. Where did any leaver say that it would cost the economy and cause job losses?

And what is "managing without a deal"? What would you say to (for example) the 6000 workers at Nissan's Sunderland plant, which they have said would not be viable if there is no deal?

[ippy]

You do realise, ippy, that the electorate in Scotland voted for neither Brexit nor the Tories, so all it conveys to me is that the Scottish electorate is effectively being disenfranchised by the weight of numbers of the electorate in England - there is a solution for that though.

And on the back of this there is another Union that now needs dissolving: so I do hope Brexit is an utter disaster (which seems likely given those who are 'masterminding' it), since that would perhaps hasten the end of the UK.

Scotland's a part of the UK at the mo and I have to admit I wouldn't want to split with the Scots anytime, but there, we are supposed to be living in a democracy.

As for brexit neither of us are likely to be as one on that anytime soon anyway have a good christmas and why you Scots don't seem to know how to celebrate the new year coming in properly, I don't know.

I share your dislike of the Tories, it was a one timer only for me, as a matter of fact I don't like any of the others too.

Other than that last election I have to use both hands driving the marker to force myself to vote most times.

Regards ippy.

 

[ippy]

For fuck's sake, were you even paying attention during the leave campaign? Quite apart from the big lie on the side of the bus (£350 million a week for the NHS), we have:-

"Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history." - Liam Fox

"The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want." - Michael Gove

"Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards." - John Redwood

"It will be so easy to negotiate a trade deal, and of course, it's in the European Union's interest, just as it is in ours." - Paul Nuttal

"A trade deal with the EU could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee." - Gerard Batten

I got bored after I'd collected those but there are plenty more if you want to look. Where did any leaver say that it would cost the economy and cause job losses?

And what is "managing without a deal"? What would you say to (for example) the 6000 workers at Nissan's Sunderland plant, which they have said would not be viable if there is no deal?

I'm sure you must know my response to any post of this kind is by now N T S.

However Happy Christmas for now and I wish you well, ippy.

[Stranger]

I'm sure you must know my response to any post of this kind is by now N T S.

Yes - I directly falsified your claim with evidence, so you're going to totally ignore it - just like Nicolas Marks and other theists you are so keen to criticise, do.

[ippy]

Yes - I directly falsified your claim with evidence, so you're going to totally ignore it - just like Nicolas Marks and other theists you are so keen to criticise, do.

Like I keep on saying to you.

Do you really think I could write anything favourable about leaving that we would agree about?

I am not going there.

ippy

[Stranger]

Like I keep on saying to you.

Do you really think I could write anything favourable about leaving that we would agree about?

Do you think Nicolas Marks could write anything about his beliefs that you would agree with? You are doing the same thing as he does and that you criticise him for. That's called 'hypocrisy'.

[jeremyp]

I don't remember reading or hearing anywhere that leaving was going to be a cake walk.

So why the fuck are we doing it?

Even without taking the result of the referendum into consideration surely an eighty plus seats result at the last election as well as never before labour seats going over to the conservatives, this must have been conveying something or the other to you.

What it conveys is that being in the majority doesn't make you right.

As I have to repeat each time I write here there's no point discussing this contentious subject

There's every point. You could have presented a cogent argument for leaving the EU but, instead, you just keep repeating the ad populum fallacy and refusing to present any kind of argument whatsoever.

You've actually got nothing. You are condemning a lot of people to a lot of hardship for some bullshit Little Englander fantasy.

[jeremyp]

Do you really think I could write anything favourable about leaving that we would agree about?

You could at least try. People are going to have their lives destroyed by Brexit. You owe it to them to tell them what their sacrifice is for.

[Gordon]

I'd amazed, given the rapid worsening of the Covid situation, both here and across much of the rest of Europe, that there has been no emergency move to find a legal way of continuing the current transitional arrangements for a further 6 - 9 months or so to allow for mass vaccination and for the Covid crisis to become less acute - it seems madness to allow the likely disruption from the the insanity of Brexit to happen in the current circumstances.

[ippy]

So why the fuck are we doing it?
What it conveys is that being in the majority doesn't make you right.
There's every point. You could have presented a cogent argument for leaving the EU but, instead, you just keep repeating the ad populum fallacy and refusing to present any kind of argument whatsoever.

You've actually got nothing. You are condemning a lot of people to a lot of hardship for some bullshit Little Englander fantasy.

Like anyone else j p, You're entitled to your opinion.

ippy.