Brexit - the next steps

[Roses]

It's a free country G V.

ippy

Free of the EU, which we need more than it needs the UK will leave us in a right mess, especially if our food and medical supplies dry up!

[Stranger]

You're right about the many people L R, but unfortunately for you not nearly enough.

I dunno, according to an average of 11 polls Oct to Dec, 39% think leaving was right versus 49% who think it was wrong. When asked how people would vote on the same question (leave or remain) today 47% would vote leave versus 53% remain (source).

Now of course remain is not an option and when you switch it to applying to rejoin we get a narrow majority for staying out: 51% versus 49%. However, this is before any of the real consequences have actually happened. I think there's very little doubt that once they do, many more people are likely to back rejoining.

The younger generations were always much more pro EU than the old fools who voted to leave, so a majority in favour of rejoining is probably only a few months to a year or so away. It may take longer for a serious political movement to take up the cause but I'm much more confident that we'll see the UK rejoin within, perhaps, the next decade.

We wont get all the same concessions, opt-outs, and discount we had before - the old fools have thrown those away for less than nothing - a few years of economic hardship, lost jobs, and lost livelihoods. Such a pointless waste.

[jeremyp]

Sovereignty's not the only reason I think it's the wisest choice to leave the EU, it is my topmost reason

Why not tell us what the other ones are?

but as you must be aware  there's so much animosity that seems to to me to be be coming from the minority view on this subject, I only wish to put a leaver mark on this almost devoid of leavers thread.

The animosity you are seeing if any, is because of your evasion. Brexiteers have stripped us of our rights and, in some cases, our livelihoods and yet they won't tell us why.

[jakswan]

No I don't. Over the next few years and decades it will become blindingly obvious that we need to be in the EU. Brexit only had a wafer thin majority in the first place.

You need consensus in a democracy, you might get it to swing your way. You're 'yah boo sucks' style of debating might cause the swing to be delayed or never to happen.

What lost us the vote was all the lying by the Leave campaigns.

Didn't persuade me, your efforts at debate during the referendum did a lot to persuade me to vote leave.
 

[jeremyp]

You need consensus in a democracy,

And you didn't really have it in 2016. The majority was wafer thin and it was obvious from demographics that it was only ever going to get thinner.

you might get it to swing your way. You're 'yah boo sucks' style of debating might cause the swing to be delayed or never to happen.

Brexiteers have fucked up the country. I'm allowed to be angry about it.

Didn't persuade me, your efforts at debate during the referendum did a lot to persuade me to vote leave.
 

As I recall, you had no understanding about the way the global economy works and refused to learn. You also had no idea about the governance of the EU.

Also, your preferred solution was the Norway deal which can be summed up as "the same as being in the EU but with no say in how the rules work". There was no way that option was ever going to fly.

Anyway, would you like to answer my question? Do you really think that Brexit is going well? Would you still have voted for it if your 2016 self had been able to see four years into the future?

[Stranger]

Didn't persuade me, your efforts at debate during the referendum did a lot to persuade me to vote leave.

Wow - if one person on a message board "did a lot" to persuade you to vote one way or the other, apparently just by their style rather than content, you really can't have considered it at all carefully or rationally. But then you did vote to leave.....

[bluehillside Retd.]

Jaks,

Didn't persuade me...

If the lies of the Brexit campaign didn't persuade you what on earth was left that did? 

[jakswan]

And you didn't really have it in 2016. The majority was wafer thin and it was obvious from demographics that it was only ever going to get thinner.

Leave won, remain lost.

Brexiteers have fucked up the country. I'm allowed to be angry about it.

Don't think you need permission for how you feel, just advocating how you approach winning a majority.

As I recall, you had no understanding about the way the global economy works and refused to learn. You also had no idea about the governance of the EU.

So, 'all that voted leave were stupid', you keep doing that!

[ProfessorDavey]

Leave won, remain lost.

A decision that the UK will regret for years and decades to come. Until we come to our senses and rejoin, which is pretty well inevitable at some point in the future.

[Aruntraveller]

Leave won, remain lost.

Two things occur to me:

Trump supporters said much the same in 2016 - and in 2020 for that matter.

A binary choice on a complex issue should never have been offered.

[Roses]

A decision that the UK will regret for years and decades to come. Until we come to our senses and rejoin, which is pretty well inevitable at some point in the future.

I think we will decide to join the EU again before too long, if they will have us.

[jakswan]

A decision that the UK will regret for years and decades to come. Until we come to our senses and rejoin, which is pretty well inevitable at some point in the future.

Re-join I'm sure will become a political force in the next few years, first needs to become a Labour policy, then they need to win an election.

Looks like a deal is very close now.

[Nearly Sane]

So the deal is a 2000 page document that will have 1 day in parliament to be scrutinised. Hmm...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Jakswan,

Leave won, remain lost.

That’s true – the project was decades in the making, and can be traced at least to as far as Johnson making up stories when he was the Torygraph’s Europe correspondent. The ground was well-prepared in most of the right-leaning press so the string of flat out lies the Brexit campaign relied on and just enough people believed come the referendum was met with little of the objective scrutiny the fourth estate was supposed to provide.     

Don't think you need permission for how you feel, just advocating how you approach winning a majority.

Not having the commentariat either asleep at the wheel or actively promoting the Brexit BS would be a good start. For now though, with the exception of those who’ve shorted sterling we’ll all wind up impoverished to varying degrees and in various ways.   

So, 'all that voted leave were stupid', you keep doing that!

Believing lies does not necessarily make someone stupid. My contempt is for the liars, not for the lied to. 

[Roses]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-55433447

AT LAST the deal has been agreed.

And on that happy note I shall sign off until after Christmas.

[Sriram]

A deal has been agreed on...!   I have no idea what the deal is....but full marks to Boris Johnson for making it happen!

[Gordon]

Excellent news: so let us hope, when the spin has settled, this is exposed as a typical Tory fuckup that aids the breakup of the UK sooner rather than later.

[Nearly Sane]

Relief and sadness.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It's a free country V G. (I've no idea why I reversed your handle).

ippy

Yes ippy it is a free country, as it is for the theists who are free to privilege religion as much as Leave privilege their blind faith in sovereignty and Brexit.

[ippy]

Why not tell us what the other ones are?

The animosity you are seeing if any, is because of your evasion. Brexiteers have stripped us of our rights and, in some cases, our livelihoods and yet they won't tell us why.

Well we'll all see now how the UK gets on with things and if it really unfolds that we really are out in the fullest understanding/meaning of actually being out of the EU.

ippy.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Ippy,

Well we'll all see now how the UK gets on with things and if it really unfolds that we really are out in the fullest understanding/meaning of actually being out of the EU.

It’s desperately thin stuff so far – what Johnson has done is merely to avoid the worst possible case in favour of a just a lousy one: a downgrade of the UK economy inevitable from leaving the single market and the customs union; disrupted supply chains; jobs lost; new investments cancelled; the departure of regulatory bodies and the attendant opportunity of the start-up businesses they encourage; loss of global influence as we’re no longer the gateway for the US in particular to Europe; international trade deals that are worse than the ones we had within the EU in any case, or at best just about equal to them; loss of food safety standards and workers’ rights; a grim race to the bottom as we try to outdo global competitors by punching down at our own citizens; the stealing on my childrens’ rights to live and work wherever they liked in Europe; the heartbreaking denial of the opportunities from Erasmus to the generations to come; our exit from playing any roles in European decision-making bodies…   


…it’s better than a catastrophic no deal would have been, but it’s still a pitiful achievement.

And the worst of it? Johnson’s misplaced triumphalism about all this concerns just the avoidance of the outcome he drove us to all along.

What an effing disaster.

[ippy]

Ippy,

It’s desperately thin stuff so far – what Johnson has done is merely to avoid the worst possible case in favour of a just a lousy one: a downgrade of the UK economy inevitable from leaving the single market and the customs union; disrupted supply chains; jobs lost; new investments cancelled; the departure of regulatory bodies and the attendant opportunity of the start-up businesses they encourage; loss of global influence as we’re no longer the gateway for the US in particular to Europe; international trade deals that are worse than the ones we had within the EU in any case, or at best just about equal to them; loss of food safety standards and workers’ rights; a grim race to the bottom as we try to outdo global competitors by punching down at our own citizens; the stealing on my childrens’ rights to live and work wherever they liked in Europe; the heartbreaking denial of the opportunities from Erasmus to the generations to come; our exit from playing any roles in European decision-making bodies…   


…it’s better than a catastrophic no deal would have been, but it’s still a pitiful achievement.

And the worst of it? Johnson’s misplaced triumphalism about all this concerns just the avoidance of the outcome he drove us to all along.

What an effing disaster.

There must be quiet a few years worth of moaning about the state of affairs there, seeing I'm feeling magnanimous about the whole thing I'll leave how many years for others to decide.

ippy.

[Gordon]

I'm with Nicola on this.

Scotland did not vote for any of this and our position is clearer than ever. Scotland now has the right to choose its own future as an independent country and once more regain the benefits of EU membership.

It beggars belief that in the midst of a pandemic and economic recession Scotland has been forced out of the EU single market and customs union with all the damage to jobs that will bring.

A deal is better than no deal. But, just because, at the 11th hour, the UK Government has decided to abandon the idea of a no-deal outcome, it should not distract from the fact that they have chosen a hard Brexit, stripping away so many of the benefits of EU membership.

[Gordon]

I like this quote from David Gaulk.

Every new inconvenience as a consequence of Brexit, every belated discovery of an advantage of EU membership that is now lost, every announcement of investment and jobs being relocated elsewhere, will be put at the prime minister’s door. There is no one else to blame.

[jeremyp]

Leave won, remain lost.

And that's all you've got isn't it Repeat the mantra of the referendum that represented one instant in time, because you've got nothing else.

So, 'all that voted leave were stupid', you keep doing that!

That is not what my statement says. First of all, it wasn't directed at Brexiteers generally, it was directed at you. Secondly, I didn't accuse you of stupidity, I accused you of ignorance. Ignorance can be cured.