Brexit - the next steps

[jeremyp]

Excellent news: so let us hope, when the spin has settled, this is exposed as a typical Tory fuckup that aids the breakup of the UK sooner rather than later.

No let's not. If it is a hideous Tory fuck up, a lot of people will suffer.

Frankly I think the sentiment that you expressed is as as bad as Ippy's. You want things to go badly so you can achieve some ideological fantasy.

[jakswan]

And that's all you've got isn't it Repeat the mantra of the referendum that represented one instant in time, because you've got nothing else.

That is demonstrably not true, you can read hundreds of my posts on the topic, I'm not offering anything now because it is in the past, remain is dead. I'll quite happily debate the merits of re-join when it becomes a realistic possibility, i.e. when it is a Labour policy.

That is not what my statement says. First of all, it wasn't directed at Brexiteers generally, it was directed at you. Secondly, I didn't accuse you of stupidity, I accused you of ignorance. Ignorance can be cured.

Semantics, that all you got?

[Gordon]

No let's not. If it is a hideous Tory fuck up, a lot of people will suffer.

Which is what I was saying, albeit ironically.

Frankly I think the sentiment that you expressed is as as bad as Ippy's. You want things to go badly so you can achieve some ideological fantasy.

Which would free Scotland from the ideological fantasy that is Brexit, and if Brexit can happen then there is scope of Scotland to detach itself from the UK given that the political preferences of the electorate in Scotland no longer matches the political preferences of the electorate in England which, given the numbers, is where the support for Brexit and the Tories is in seemingly baked in with the bricks there for the foreseeable future.

[Harrowby Hall]

Yes, Ippy, this will give Britain (whatever that means) now that it it free from the bonds of EuroFederalism (or whatever you perceive as loss of sovereignty) the opportunity to strike out and be able to develop an industrial culture that will outclass that existing elsewhere in this part of the world. In ten years time - who knows - now that we don't have the repressive Euro legislation holding us down, we could become the Bangladesh of the West.

Shirts, vests and knickers will no longer need to be transported a third of the way round the globe, our collapsed economy will ensure that we supply a grateful European market. And every year, on St Farage's day, all manual workers will be expected to give a day's labour without pay to honour Duke Rees-Mogg.

Whatever else happens now, I think that there has to be some kind of enquiry into the constitution and governance of whatever passes for the British state. The current model is well passed its usefulness. The Palace of Westminster should become a museum/hotel complex and a new legislative complex which has chambers that do not mimic medieval church choir stalls (possibly in Milton Keynes). The debating chambers should be built in such a way that they promote co-operation rather than conflict and each member should have a work-station which helps him or her to work efficiently and effectively.And, of course, there should be an electoral system which promotes representation.

[jeremyp]

That is demonstrably not true,

I don't see any of you volunteering the wonderful benefits of Brexit. In fact some of your number are explicitly refusing to tell us what they are. What other conclusion can I draw?

[jeremyp]

Which is what I was saying, albeit ironically.

Which would free Scotland from the ideological fantasy that is Brexit

Brexit is not an ideological fantasy, it is a gruesome reality. Jakswan is right about one thing: it's done. We have to do what we can to minimise the damage until such time as the UK can re-enter the EU.

and if Brexit can happen then there is scope of Scotland to detach itself from the UK

You've seen Brexit. That's a cake walk compared to Scottish independence. You don't want to go through the same thing again only ten times worse, do you?

[Aruntraveller]

Handy guide to tell us what we have gained (Clue - NOTHING)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/eu-releases-brutal-graphic-shows-23218056?

[jakswan]

Which is what I was saying, albeit ironically.

Which would free Scotland from the ideological fantasy that is Brexit, and if Brexit can happen then there is scope of Scotland to detach itself from the UK given that the political preferences of the electorate in Scotland no longer matches the political preferences of the electorate in England which, given the numbers, is where the support for Brexit and the Tories is in seemingly baked in with the bricks there for the foreseeable future.

An independent Scotland and an independent UK are much the same ideology.

I know the EU doesn't have English people in it so is more palatable for you.

 

[jakswan]

I don't see any of you volunteering the wonderful benefits of Brexit. In fact some of your number are explicitly refusing to tell us what they are. What other conclusion can I draw?

My number, I started counting and only got to 1.

I have in the past debated this topic I'm not doing this now because it's moot.

Once Labour adopt re-join as policy will happily debate again.

[Aruntraveller]

You've seen Brexit. That's a cake walk compared to Scottish independence. You don't want to go through the same thing again only ten times worse, do you?

I have to agree with Jeremy.

Don't get me wrong I can see all the political, social and emotional arguments for independence. I just can't see how you could implement it fairly. The whole thing would be horrendous - from currency, to trade, to assets. I just don't see how it could happen.

And just think for a moment about what has happened in Brexit. The larger of the two parties came off significantly better. I see no difference when it comes to Scotland v. rUK.

You surely aren't expecting a UK Conservative Government to treat you fairly. I am aware of the inherent irony of that statement in that that is one of the driving forces for independence in the first place.

[Harrowby Hall]

Something which seems to have been ignored during the whole of this wretched wankfest: the ultimate ownership of the UK's economy.

If I recall correctly, one of the main policies of the Thatcher government was to welcome investment lnto the UK, no matter where it came from. The benefit (to the government) was that the investment appeared on the national balance sheet as an asset. The greater the inward investment, the more prosperous the nation appeared to be. This permitted many British companies, purchased by foreign buyers,  to be continued to be perceived as British companies. Even  companies that were British cultural icons - like Cadburys - were allowed to be absorbed into alien organisations (admittedly, long after the demise of Thatcher).

One of the ignored consequences of this was that company strategy was being determined somewhere out of the reach of British legislators. Virtually nothing of the British car manufacturing business is controlled within the UK. Even a quintessentially British brand like Jaguar Land Rover is controlled in India. There are now JLR production facilities in China and Slovakia. Difficulties due to the UK not being a member of the EU could lead to all connection with the company's origins being severed. The British government would be powerless. The removal large segments of British manufacturing would be economically disatrous.

[Gordon]

You've seen Brexit. That's a cake walk compared to Scottish independence. You don't want to go through the same thing again only ten times worse, do you?

Yep - the shift in the political preferences of the electorate in England (majority support for Brexit/the Tories) effectively disenfranchises the electorate in Scotland (no majority support for either), and I see little prospect of that changing.

Therefore, in these circumstances, I want Scotland to be free of the rest of the UK.

[ippy]

And that's all you've got isn't it Repeat the mantra of the referendum that represented one instant in time, because you've got nothing else.
That is not what my statement says. First of all, it wasn't directed at Brexiteers generally, it was directed at you. Secondly, I didn't accuse you of stupidity, I accused you of ignorance. Ignorance can be cured.

Couldn't it be you j p that's ignorant of the consequences of staying with the EU? I'm not saying you are ignorant but like you're having difficulty living with the result it would be much the same to either point of view taken.

Surely it had to be a referendum and then after that referendum look at the present government's majority it's certainly not a majority given out of love of or for the Tories, well certainly not on my part anyway.

No I won't be adding to the anything I've already stated, just in case you might/may have wondered. 

ippy.

[jeremyp]

Handy guide to tell us what we have gained (Clue - NOTHING)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/eu-releases-brutal-graphic-shows-23218056?

That's an excellent graphic. However, according to the Brexiteers, there are some subjects where there is a green tick in the UK side and a red cross on the EU side. It's just that it is remarkably hard to get them to tell us what those subjects are.

On the other hand, we were very much looking at red crosses on all the boxes on the UK side a few days ago. The deal we have now is the best we could have got in the current circumstances. I'll never forgive the Brexiteers for getting us into the current circumstances though.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Jakswan,

That's an excellent graphic. However, according to the Brexiteers, there are some subjects where there is a green tick in the UK side and a red cross on the EU side. It's just that it is remarkably hard to get them to tell us what those subjects are.

On the other hand, we were very much looking at red crosses n all the boxes on the UK side. The deal we have now is the best we could have got in the current circumstances. I'll never forgive the Brexiteers for getting us into the current circumstances though.

Which is entirely your prerogative of course. Just out of interest though, had knowledge of the grim reality of the Brexit deal we actually have now (as opposed to the fantasy version peddled by the the Brexit campaign) been known to you back in 2016 would you still have voted for it?   

[jeremyp]

Yep - the shift in the political preferences of the electorate in England (majority support for Brexit/the Tories) effectively disenfranchises the electorate in Scotland (no majority support for either), and I see little prospect of that changing.

The political preferences in England are likely to swing back towards EU membership over the next few years and also away from the Tories.

Therefore, in these circumstances, I want Scotland to be free of the rest of the UK.

In many areas Scotland is already free of the rest of the UK. If you push for full independence, it's going to be worse than Brexit. Just the issues surrounding your currency are probably intractable. Then there's the border and what to do about all the English people living in Scotland and vice versa. As I said, Brexit will be a cake walk compared to Scottish Independence.

[Gordon]

The political preferences in England are likely to swing back towards EU membership over the next few years and also away from the Tories.
In many areas Scotland is already free of the rest of the UK. If you push for full independence, it's going to be worse than Brexit. Just the issues surrounding your currency are probably intractable. Then there's the border and what to do about all the English people living in Scotland and vice versa. As I said, Brexit will be a cake walk compared to Scottish Independence.

I think many of us in Scotland think we should "take back control": now that sounds like a slogan we could  use.

[Aruntraveller]

I think many of us in Scotland think we should "take back control": now that sounds like a slogan we could  use.

Yes, it is a good slogan, but as we've just found out the rhetoric doesn't match the reality.

[Stranger]

Couldn't it be you j p that's ignorant of the consequences of staying with the EU?

Everybody knows what being in the EU is like and you have yet to name a single disadvantage.

Surely it had to be a referendum and then after that referendum look at the present government's majority it's certainly not a majority given out of love of or for the Tories, well certainly not on my part anyway.

The referendum and the election were won with lies, ippy. Unless you think we're actually going to get £350m a week extra for the NHS, you are effectively agreeing. In reality, the UK will be financially worse off for leaving, which is the exact opposite to what was promised by the leave campaign.

No I won't be adding to the anything I've already stated, just in case you might/may have wondered. 

Which makes you intellectually, and with regard to the evidence you offer, equal with Nicolas Marks.

[Aruntraveller]

You'll never be taken very seriously Ippy, not without something verifiable in the way of evidence, come on let's have it, if you have any?

[jakswan]

Yep - the shift in the political preferences of the electorate in England (majority support for Brexit/the Tories) effectively disenfranchises the electorate in Scotland (no majority support for either), and I see little prospect of that changing.

Therefore, in these circumstances, I want Scotland to be free of the rest of the UK.

Just trying this on for size:-
Yep - the shift in the political preferences of the electorate in EU (majority support for EU/socialism) effectively disenfranchises the electorate in UK, and I see little prospect of that changing.

Therefore, in these circumstances, I want UK to be free of the rest of the EU.

Brexit/Indyref2 ideology very similar.

[jakswan]

Jakswan,

Which is entirely your prerogative of course. Just out of interest though, had knowledge of the grim reality of the Brexit deal we actually have now (as opposed to the fantasy version peddled by the the Brexit campaign) been known to you back in 2016 would you still have voted for it?

I wanted politicians to be accountable to the electorate, a Norway type deal would have been my favoured option. Had remainers not have played into hard line Brexiters hands, we could have got that deal, in hindsight.... I don't know, possibly not from that perspective.

Moot point now though, I think the Scotland is the next major political issue facing the UK.

I think re-join as a serious debate is some way off, with car-crash Corbyn gone, I could easily vote for Labour next election. If I'm representative of swing voters then I can't see Labour policy moving to re-join for some years.

[Gordon]

Just trying this on for size:-
Yep - the shift in the political preferences of the electorate in EU (majority support for EU/socialism) effectively disenfranchises the electorate in UK, and I see little prospect of that changing.

Therefore, in these circumstances, I want UK to be free of the rest of the EU.

Brexit/Indyref2 ideology very similar.

Super - so you've established with principle with Brexit in relation to the UK/EU, therefore he same principle can apply to Scotland/UK.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Jakswan,

I wanted politicians to be accountable to the electorate, a Norway type deal would have been my favoured option.

They were. MEPs are elected to the European Parliament. How effective the process is, how well the issues were explained to the electorate, how interested the electorate were etc are debatable, but accountability was there all along. Wef from 01.01.21 though we shall in various ways be subject to the rules of the EU if we want to trade with them, but with with no accountability to the UK electorate at all. The deal we have now is an electoral deficit, not a gain. 

Had remainers not have played into hard line Brexiters hands, we could have got that deal, in hindsight.... I don't know, possibly not from that perspective.

So it’s the fault of remainers that they weren’t effective enough in preventing the hardliners from having their way notwithstanding the 30 + years of disinformation they had to counter, the platform of lies of the Brexit campaign and a press largely asleep at the wheel when they should have been challenging them, the dubious funding of the Brexit campaign pitted against the well-meaning amateurism of the remain campaign, the thousands of pro-Brexit Twitter accounts that mysteriously disappeared immediately after the vote etc?

Really though?       

Moot point now though, I think the Scotland is the next major political issue facing the UK.

Probably, which is ironic as it’ll be caused at root by the Conservative & Unionist party.

I think re-join as a serious debate is some way off, with car-crash Corbyn gone, I could easily vote for Labour next election. If I'm representative of swing voters then I can't see Labour policy moving to re-join for some years.

I think re-joining is a distinct possibility, but not for at least a generation or more and never on as favourable terms as those we’ve just thrown away. The dark stain of Johnson, Gove et al will take decades to wash away – if ever.

Anyway, the question was actually this: if back in 2016 you’d seen the skip fire of a deal we now have, would you still have voted to leave?

[jakswan]

Super - so you've established with principle with Brexit in relation to the UK/EU, therefore he same principle can apply to Scotland/UK.

Of course fully support IndyRef2, think you have a bunch of politicians are very adept at blaming Westminster for issues, this won't be an issue once Scotland leaves!