Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps  (Read 410099 times)

ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6100 on: December 29, 2020, 04:30:10 PM »
Whilst it is always sensible to retain a degree of scepticism about any news media, The Guardian and the BBC seem to me to be reasonably balanced in their reporting: do you have evidence, beyond that they may not agree with you or you don't like what they say, that they are prejudiced? In relation to the link I posted, about increased costs to the general public who purchase good from the EU over a certain value (such as via eBay), can you counter what The Guardian reported?



Like many of my fellow Scots I value the EU, and given the lurch towards the Tories/Brexit elsewhere in the UK I'd rather ditch the UK.

I wont be reading or taking anything I have the misfortune to hear about brexit coming from either of those two sources.
 
No doubt any devout remainer will find some way of dismissing the Civitas report about the Brussels Broadcasting Corporation and any attack on those two media sources by them, but if say the report is out by 20% on it's figures about the BBC's brexit coverage it'd still only amount to 23.2% of the leave side of being put out to air by the BBC

The actual coverage discrepancy between leave and remain favouring presentations by the BBC between 2004 & 2015 was according to Civitas was out of 4275 guests appearing on the BBC it amounted to only 3.2% of the total figure were pro Brexit, something remainers I suspect more than likely don't want to hear so, no doubt, that'll be dismissed out of hand straight away.

I find it difficult to believe anybody that even suggests that they didn't think the BBC's coverage of Brexit had a distinct bias for remain  actually I say anybody with a half a brain that says they didn't notice this BBC bias is lying and as for the Guardian tear it up into squares a string or a hook through one corner______________
 
ippy.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6101 on: December 29, 2020, 04:41:23 PM »
Please, we've covered Civitas before. Not unbiased themselves are they?

Shared the same building as Vote Leave? Coincidence?

Strange that they don't concentrate on the unrelenting pro brexit position of say the Daily Mail. Which I doubt has ever printed one thing in favour of the EU.

Go away and come back with real evidence if you can.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6102 on: December 29, 2020, 05:08:08 PM »
Please, we've covered Civitas before. Not unbiased themselves are they?

Shared the same building as Vote Leave? Coincidence?

Strange that they don't concentrate on the unrelenting pro brexit position of say the Daily Mail. Which I doubt has ever printed one thing in favour of the EU.

Go away and come back with real evidence if you can.

I'm really surprised by your reaction to my post Trent!

They still didn't manage between all of the various groups to sway the vote by even the slightest jot.

ippy.


Aruntraveller

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6103 on: December 29, 2020, 05:16:15 PM »
Quote
They still didn't manage between all of the various groups to sway the vote by even the slightest jot.

I'm sorry you'll have to explain. Who didn't? The Beeb? The Mail? Sky? The express? LBC? Who are you talking about.

How do you quantify who swayed the votes and by what means?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6104 on: December 29, 2020, 05:20:50 PM »
They still didn't manage between all of the various groups to sway the vote by even the slightest jot.

Looks like you missed it Trent, and of course you've no idea what I'm writing about, don't worry it's the 31st soon.

Gordon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6105 on: December 29, 2020, 05:34:28 PM »
They still didn't manage between all of the various groups to sway the vote by even the slightest jot.

Looks like you missed it Trent, and of course you've no idea what I'm writing about, don't worry it's the 31st soon.

Can't wait, ippy: Brexit will boost the case for Scottish independence no end.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6106 on: December 29, 2020, 05:39:49 PM »
They still didn't manage between all of the various groups to sway the vote by even the slightest jot.

Looks like you missed it Trent, and of course you've no idea what I'm writing about, don't worry it's the 31st soon.

Oh dear. DO I have to spell it out?

You claim bias on the part of the BBC and Guardian. I claim bias on the part of ITV, SKY, the rest of the printed press with the exception of the I and the Mirror. Now who swayed who, by how much and how did it affect the result.

For the hard of thinking let me be clear it is impossible to tell. But what isn't in dispute is that Civitas is not, and has never been an impartial source.

I don't suppose you will believe this because it's not from some howling right wing source (I know you will protest you are not right wing - methinks you doth protest too much) but it is worth a read(it is 2017 but that is when all this Brexit stuff was going on & on):

https://www.desmog.co.uk/2017/02/08/opaque-and-deceptive-think-tanks-spend-millions-pushing-brexit-and-climate-science-misinformation
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6107 on: December 29, 2020, 07:44:20 PM »
Oh dear. DO I have to spell it out?

You claim bias on the part of the BBC and Guardian. I claim bias on the part of ITV, SKY, the rest of the printed press with the exception of the I and the Mirror. Now who swayed who, by how much and how did it affect the result.

For the hard of thinking let me be clear it is impossible to tell. But what isn't in dispute is that Civitas is not, and has never been an impartial source.

I don't suppose you will believe this because it's not from some howling right wing source (I know you will protest you are not right wing - methinks you doth protest too much) but it is worth a read(it is 2017 but that is when all this Brexit stuff was going on & on):

https://www.desmog.co.uk/2017/02/08/opaque-and-deceptive-think-tanks-spend-millions-pushing-brexit-and-climate-science-misinformation
 

Yes sky news, channel 4news, the BBC and the I T V news have tended to cross fertilise with each other for some time over the years you're right about that and then when you add them to the parliamentary bias for remain as well in spite of all that lot and the leave vote still shone through all of it.

I would love to see a re run of the BBC's referendum night programming the looks on their totally 'unbiased' faces were priceless.

Jeremy Vine gave up on his little yellow brick road David Dimbleby looked like he was choking on the words he didn't want to have to say, it would be necessary to be totally blind if you couldn't see how much bias there is against leaving the EU there is at the BBC and was there on that night.

I must add it would be equally wrong of these broadcasters to have a bias either way, but there it's mostly over now.

ippy.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6108 on: December 29, 2020, 08:13:47 PM »
You really don't read with comprehension do you?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6109 on: December 29, 2020, 08:50:12 PM »
You really don't read with comprehension do you?

I was thinking much the same about your posts but there I don't have any feelings that make me want to think you're thick just because we don't agree about Brexit.

I do keep on forgetting how stupid we were to vote leave, I'm so so genuinely sorry about that.

ippy.

Gordon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6110 on: December 29, 2020, 09:04:42 PM »
I do keep on forgetting how stupid we were to vote leave, I'm so so genuinely sorry about that.

ippy.

In that case we'll just have to keep reminding you: and it's a bit too late to be sorry.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6111 on: December 29, 2020, 09:18:57 PM »
Quote
I do keep on forgetting how stupid we were to vote leave, I'm so so genuinely sorry about that.

That is a lie, of course. No surprise there.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6112 on: December 29, 2020, 09:54:29 PM »
It appears that while Labour MPs are meant to vote for the legislation about the deal, Labour MSPs will vote for a motion against the deal.

ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6113 on: December 30, 2020, 12:08:36 AM »
That is a lie, of course. No surprise there.

Likewise Trent.

ippy.

Roses

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6114 on: December 30, 2020, 03:27:26 PM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55478513

MPs have voted by a very large majority (521-73) to back the Brexit trade deal with the EU.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 03:31:00 PM by Littleroses »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6115 on: December 30, 2020, 03:49:53 PM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55478513

MPs have voted by a very large majority (521-73) to back the Brexit trade deal with the EU.
This thread is good on the damage done by how we had the debate.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1344228458143113216.html

Aruntraveller

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6116 on: December 30, 2020, 04:00:58 PM »
Likewise Trent.

ippy.

Not really. Do you just randomly generate shit?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6117 on: December 31, 2020, 12:36:10 PM »
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6118 on: December 31, 2020, 12:47:32 PM »
We arrived at this point because too many of the MP's put their own agenda ahead of the country.

Nice to see Nicola get a good bashing:-
https://www.scottishparliament.tv/meeting/debate-trade-and-co-operation-agreement-between-the-united-kingdom-and-the-european-union-december-30-2020?clip_start=13:43:59&clip_end=13:54:59
Your post seems a complete non sequitur to the thread I posted.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6119 on: December 31, 2020, 01:49:14 PM »
Bit technical this, but some of you might be interested in the tariff-free claim re the Brexit deal (I do consulting work in this area, so have to read the mountain of new rules that have just been published).

Member states of the EU can move goods tariff (and largely paperwork) free between themselves. A movement of good from, say, London to Paris is equivalent to a movement from London to Manchester in other words. This arrangement relies on a concept called “free circulation” and free circulation status applies in two circumstance, namely:

- goods “wholly obtained” in the EU (eg dug from the ground, produced on farms etc); and

- goods imported from non-EU countries that have satisfied all the import formalities, paid the relevant import taxes etc.

So if, say, a car maker assembles cars from EU-made components and from third country components that are all in free circulation, the car can move to other member states without further customs formalities and imports taxes. 

This is the arrangement that, until 11 pm today, the UK enjoys as part of the customs union.

So what will change after 11 pm? In short, the free circulation concept will disappear, and instead if imports from the EU are to enter the UK without customs duties they will have to satisfy various rules of origin. To go back to our car maker, who we’ll say is in Germany: that business will assemble cars from lots of EU-made components, but will also have components sourced from non-EU countries. If he wants to sell his cars tariff-free to the UK, he’ll have to show therefore that his cars “originate” in the EU despite their non-EU content. This is done in one or a mix of several ways, namely:

- by calculating the values of the EU vs the non-EU content, and then looking up special rules on a product-by-product basis (for example, you may have to show that at least 50% of the ex works price is EU added);

- by changes to the classification of the imported components. All imports and exports are classified using a global nomenclature called the Harmonised System, so this rule means that the classification for the non-EU component (eg an engine) is different from the classification for the EU-made product (eg, a car). This change in classification rule also varies according to the number of digits of the classifications that have to change (four-digit level, six-digit level etc); and/or

- product-specific rules (for some plastics for example, it’s “a chemical reaction, purification, mixing and blending, production of standard materials, a change in particle size, isomer separation, or biotechnological processing is undergone”).     

Sometimes just one of these rules will apply, and sometimes a combination of them will.

OK, so what does this mean in practice? These days relatively few EU-made goods are “wholly obtained”. From cars to tomato sauce to textile goods to pretty much anything manufactured, there’s a good chance that some or all of the materials used come from outside the EU. This means that for these goods the origin rules have to be understood and calculated, and that many apparently EU goods won’t be deemed to be EU goods at all, so if they’re shipped to the UK they’ll have to pay import duties. Thus if, say, our car maker has too much non-EU content in his cars instead of duty free access to the UK they’ll pay an import tax of 10%.

And all of this applies reciprocally of course. That is UK manufacturers/exporters will have to do the same calculations for their goods, and if they fail the same UK origin status rules those goods will attract import duty when they arrive at the EU border.

So, in summary, what this means is that “tariff-free” post Brexit is true to an extent, but in fact there will be considerable tariffs imposed in both directions for all the non-originating goods that move from the UK to the EU and vice versa. 

Anyway, just thought this might be worth setting out for any of you not quite as across the rules as I have to be…  :o                         
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 04:59:42 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6120 on: December 31, 2020, 02:20:30 PM »
Excellent post, bhs. What impact does the Northern Irish solution have here?

jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6121 on: December 31, 2020, 02:41:23 PM »
No both de iure, that isn't the case - voting against the legislation is not voting for no deal
Yes it is, because there is nothing else on offer. Voting against the deal is voting for WTO rules and hence a kick in the teeth for all Britons.

Symbolic gestures are pointless now. We have already lost. Better to move on and start campaigning to rejoin the EU.

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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6122 on: December 31, 2020, 02:42:37 PM »
Exactly - it is the argument of an abusive spouse - stay and be abused, because if you leave we will really hurt you.

But Scotland is not being abused by England.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6123 on: December 31, 2020, 02:47:32 PM »
NS,

Quote
Excellent post, bhs. What impact does the Northern Irish solution have here?

Thank you. Re NI, different ball game. Wef 11 pm tonight a “border in the Irish Sea” will apply so movements between the UK and NI in either direction will require customs declarations. This is a big deal – it’s like saying we now have customs declarations between London and Manchester, but it was the only way to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland. 

As for duties there should be no duties in either direction, but UK exporters will need to show that the goods they sell to NI are not “at risk” of entering the rest of the EU, ie the Republic especially because there’s are no customs checks between NI and the Republic. This’ll largely be done with a trusted trader scheme as I understand it but the practical complexities of preventing smuggling into the EU especially don’t seem to be well worked out. A guidance note on Brexit and NI has just been published, but I admit I haven’t had time to read it yet (the rest of EU stuff has some 800 pages to digest!).     

       
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #6124 on: December 31, 2020, 02:49:24 PM »

I couldn't think of any good reason to read anything coming from the Guardian.

Pretty much the same piece also appeared in the Daily Telegraph. I know that because my mother read it and got quite angry. When my parents go on holiday to France they alway bring back more than 18 litres of wine, usually in the form of three 10 litre boxes plus numerous bottles.

She was also quite shocked when I told her that roaming charges will probably be coming back.

I told her that, if she didn't like it, she shouldn't have voted for Brexit. Oh well.
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