Author Topic: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft  (Read 14212 times)

Owlswing

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In an attempt to clarify the Pagan beliefs that I hold and how they relate to witchcraft practice AS I KNOW it, could I ask any poster who might be interested in facts rather than fiction and/or superstition to detail their knowledge on these matters.

Please - I stess the word KNOWLEDGE! NOT what you have heard third or fourth hand; NOT what you have read in the papers; NOT what you have guessed; NOT what you have been told by someone who CLAIMS to be either Pagan or witch!

What you actually know!

My responses, if any are required will only be from my personal experience and experiences as I cannot and will not attempt to answer for anyone else within other either Pagan or Witchcraft communities/covens.

Alternatively, of course, if you are able to state that you know two-thirds of three-fifths of naff-all about either post what ypou would like to know and I'll do my best to answer you.

Bright Blessings, Love and Light and may the old ones watchover you and yours always.

)O(
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Nearly Sane

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2016, 03:35:57 PM »
Many thanks, Owlswing, for this offer! As a neophyte in such things, could I ask is there something that you see as specifically cultural about your beliefs?

Owlswing

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2016, 05:37:04 PM »

Many thanks, Owlswing, for this offer! As a neophyte in such things, could I ask is there something that you see as specifically
cultural about your beliefs?



One of my problems here (the forum) is understanding the meanings of some terms used (usually those that end in -ism or -ology so beloved of Vlad), I will answer within my understanding of the word "cultural" - as in where do they fit within the culture if the UK. I hope this will be ok. You can always tell me if it isn't.

AS must be obvious to even the most jaundiced eye Paganism is deeply embedded in the history of (what is now) the UK.

The standing stones all over the place, England, Ireland (North and South), Wales, and Scotland, testify to a Pagan history.

However even this statement is open to argument. Why? Simple, the Pagans of British history did not write a Bible to record their faith/beliefs * for later generations to fight over.

Do my beliefs hold that the Rollright Stones (Oxfordshire), Castle Rigg (Cumbria) and, of course, Avebury and Stonehenge show that paganism was part of the history and culture of ancient Britain?

100% yes! NO shadow of a doubt.

The Welsh, Irish, and Scots have their own circles ad they also had their own deities that they honoured, quite possibly, at the sites marked by the stones.

This leads to the major basis for the rejection by other established, Abrahamic religions of the relevance and/or validity of modern Paganism as modern Pagans cannot show written proof of the rituals used, the words said, the praise given, the deities, male and/or female, to whom such praise was given.

This lack of written history has given rise to two, at times widely divergent, motorways of paganism from which the many and varied personal paths of Pagan faith have formed.

The first, and that which its followers deem to be the "real" one, is the Reconstructionist way. Using only those parts of Pagan history that are documented until something is found to add to or amend what already exists. Even this path has its detractors from the outside who claim that all claims to authenticity are suspect due to the length of time since they were written/carved, the difficulty of knowing exactly what the carved/written words actually mean (where have I heard that complaint before).

The other is to read everything available that can be trusted and make a judgement based upon that reading. There are many books out there on Paganism, one of the best authorities on the subject is Professor Ronald Hutton of Bristol University, but there are others and using "what feels right to you", the individual! Hence the description by many of Modern Paganism as a pick and mix religion.

That it may be BUT BUT BUT mot pagans on these many and varied path feel that this is better than having to sallow and entire religion whole, in one lump so you do not get to taste the ingredients.

Can I claim that my beliefs are accurate to the history of Paganism as it was practiced in historic UK?

NO, I cannot and I do not try - my path is one that I have found for myself, by walking it, night after night, day after day, Esbat by Esbat, Sabbat by Sabbat, Solstice and Equinox by etc., picking up morsels here and there. I listen to other pagans as they describe their paths, rituals, insights. Sometimes I find something that I didn't have and incorporate it, sometimes I find a different way to do something and adjust or discard whet I have been doing.

The Pagan culture of this land was scattered and disconnected because the people, were scattered and disconnected - they did not have some priest from hundreds of miles way telling them how to deal with their deities, they tried it as they went along and if it worked (i e gave tem  good harvest) they did it the same way next time - if it didn’t, they tried another way hoping that that might work.

Pagan deities were/are capricious and can be malevolent BUT they have never pretended to be anything else.       


* Going forward I will use beliefs rather than try to differentiate which of the terms more accurately fits any context. 
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Brownie

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2016, 06:07:45 PM »
Thanks for this Owlswing.
I know nothing of Paganism except what you have said and would like to know more.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Owlswing

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2016, 09:43:34 PM »

Thanks for this Owlswing.

I know nothing of Paganism except what you have said and would like to know more.


I would like to help. However. I have been studying, on and off, for 10 years, eleven if you count the year as a Dedicant prior to my actual initiation.

I know about the history of the Craft, far more than I know about Paganism itself. The Craft is a big enough subject, Paganism is far, far bigger as it takes in Egyptian, Norse, Roman, Greek, Celtic (Irish and Scots and Welsh), Assyrian etc etc etc!

I would ask then that you pose relatively specific questions and I will attempt to answer them.

One point, some things are taught only after a witch has joined a Coven and taken the Oath that applies to that Coven. One of the things covered by that Oath, items called Oathbound, are the identities of fellow members of a Coven. This is because it is still not wise in some professions to admit to being a Pagan, much less a witch. Two witches known to me personally have had this problem, a Professor of Molecular Biology and a Barrister.

So if I answer that something is Oathbound it is because of something like this.     
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Gordon

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2016, 10:37:20 PM »
Have to say I know less than I probably should about Paganism for someone with an interest in theism.

One thing that I would like to know more about is the crossover between Paganism and other religions, Christianity mainly in UK terms, such as the main festivals during the calendar year. We've just passed one and another is on the way and while I know a little about Saturnalia pre-dating Christmas etc I don't know much more than that.

So, I'd be interested in a kind of summary of the key stages in the Pagan year.

Owlswing

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2016, 11:33:43 PM »
Have to say I know less than I probably should about Paganism for someone with an interest in theism.

One thing that I would like to know more about is the crossover between Paganism and other religions, Christianity mainly in UK terms, such as the main festivals during the calendar year. We've just passed one and another is on the way and while I know a little about Saturnalia pre-dating Christmas etc I don't know much more than that.

So, I'd be interested in a kind of summary of the key stages in the Pagan year.

I'll get the book out tomorrow morning - I'm just doing a quick run through the Forum/Facebook/Yahoo before heading for the sack.

Sleep well   
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

jeremyp

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2016, 02:15:42 AM »
What I do know about paganism is that it isn't a thing. Or rather, it isn't one thing. "Pagan" in the context of first century Europe is really a catchall term for "non Abrahamic religions". There's really no reason at all to suppose that the religions of the people that built each phase of Stonehenge had anything to do with Celtic religions or the Druids or pagan Roman and Greek religions or the pre Christian Saxon and Norse religions.

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Owlswing

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2016, 03:11:40 AM »

What I do know about paganism is that it isn't a thing. Or rather, it isn't one thing. "Pagan" in the context of first century Europe is really a catchall term for "non Abrahamic religions". There's really no reason at all to suppose that the religions of the people that built each phase of Stonehenge had anything to do with Celtic religions or the Druids or pagan Roman and Greek religions or the pre Christian Saxon and Norse religions.


In the context of first century Europe there were only two non-Abrahamic religions, Islam did not exist at that time, and the term would probably only have been used by Christians, not by Jews.

Considering the date of Stonehenge there is no way of knowing what or who the builders believed in. I know of nowhere that I have claimed differently. I cannot even think of any archaeologist or historian who has made claims as to knowledge of, or who has even speculated upon which, if any, religion or deities were worshipped there except, possibly the Sun and/or Moon.

Perhaps you could expand upon your first two sentences in order that I can make some sort of reasoned comment upon them.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2016, 04:54:20 AM »
Have to say I know less than I probably should about Paganism for someone with an interest in theism.

One thing that I would like to know more about is the crossover between Paganism and other religions, Christianity mainly in UK terms, such as the main festivals during the calendar year. We've just passed one and another is on the way and while I know a little about Saturnalia pre-dating Christmas etc I don't know much more than that.

So, I'd be interested in a kind of summary of the key stages in the Pagan year.


Yes, I know it is 0315! Insomnia - dammit!

I can only expand upon the annual festivals, as I know then, for the specifics of the Saturnalia I would need to consult a Pagan who follows the Roman pantheon and I cannot think of one.

The logical place to start is New Year, probably. November 1, Samhain (I pronounce this "sah wain", but as with most things relating to modern Pagans there are many different pronunciations. In America they have at least eight or nine that I have heard of.) is seen not so much as the New Year, but as the end of the old year. A time to remember those who have passed to the Summerlands during the previous twelve months especially, but also all family members and friends. It is believed to be the time when the veil between the worlds of the living and the dead is at its thinnest and it is a time when many Pagans sit in silent meditation to be in a receptive frame of mind should someone who has passed wish to contact them.

NO - we do not call upon the dead to speak to us. It is not for the living to disturb the peace of the dead, but it is acceptable to listen should they speak. Most who do this have a piece of knowledge of those who may speak in order to verify the identity of the speaker in order to prevent giving something nasty a way into this world.

Just an aside - no Pagan will ever use an Ouija - it is too hard to identify who is controlling the board.
 
One tradition at Samhain is the setting of a place at dinner/supper for a family member who has passed over during the previous year. Johnny Canoe once made some rather unpleasant remarks about Pagans wasting food by setting out a full meal for the dead person which I have since found out is one of the serious differences between British and American Pagans/witches - some American Pagans do actually set the full meal. (I will expand upon some aspects of the American version of Paganism/witchcraft at the end of this post over and above the matters that are relevant and included.)

Yule - the Winter Solstice - the shortest day/longest night - rituals performed as a kind of thanks for having survived the worst of the weather and getting prepared for Spring.

Imbolc - pronounced im-olg (by some) - marks the celebration of the beginning of spring

Spring Equinox - also called Ostara - halfway between the Winter and Summer Solstices, the time when day and night (light and dark) are of equal length. Ostara or Eostre are, supposedly, that is not accepted by all Pagans, named after an Anglo-Saxon Goddess Eostre thus aligned with oestrogen, hence Easter eggs. The only record of such a deity that I have come across in my researches is from the Venerable Bede.

Beltaine - Mayday - the big Pagan fertility festival, maypoles, dancing, drinking and, in medieval times, supposedly, the Greenwood Wedding. A couple who wanted to wed but for any reason would disappear from the Mayday celebrations into the local woods and a couple of months later there was a good chance a real wedding would be arranged, the Goddess having shown that they were "meant to be together".

Summer Solstice - the longest day - the Druids pilgrimage to Stonehenge for sunrise accompanied by hundreds of hippies and new-agers stoned or drunk or both; the Druids celebrate the Solstice with an "ancient" ritual supposedly passed down from father to son (Druidry is a patriarchy - females are for sacrificing). The hippies/new-agers contribute to the destruction of the stones by pissing and vomiting on them. The English Heritage has stated that urination on the stones at Solstice has caused more damage in the last five years than nature has in five thousand.

Lughnasadh (loo-nass-a) or Lammas - August 1 - the beginning of the harvest season - rituals to ensure good weather in which to bring the harvest in and to give thanks for a good crop.         
   
Autumn Equinox - day and night equal again, the mid-point of the harvest season and preparations are made for winter. Animals not strong enough to survive winter would be slaughtered and stored to feed the people and other animals through the winter. The Americans have decided that this festival is called Mabon after a figure from a Welsh Arthurian legend.   

The above, taken all together, is called the Wheel of the Year and is one of the inventions of Gerald Brosseau Gardner, the Father of Wicca.

American Paganism/witchcraft - not without a fair amount of justification American Pagans and witches tend not to make too much of a noise about their religion or membership of the Craft. The reaction of the families in Practical Magic to the witches in their town is actually a pretty accurate picture even today according to the two American witches that I do know.

American witches tend to refer to themselves as Wiccans which can cause misunderstandings on this side of the pond. In the UK a Wiccan (capital W) is a strict follower of the rule and regulations laid down by the abovementioned Gerald Gardner and they jealously guard their right to deny the Capital W to any who do not fulfil what they see as the required standards.

The Americans also have a nasty habit of, in their words, improving things, including the Craft. Brits tend to refer to "improving" as "fucking about with", as in the renaming of some of the points on the Wheel.

OK - enough for now already.

Keep it simple and let me know any questions that you have on the above and, when I have sorted those out as far toward your satisfaction as I can, we can move on to other things if you so wish.         

Blessed be!

)O(
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

trippymonkey

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2016, 08:18:16 AM »
Great Post, O

Blessed Be !!!!

Nick

Owlswing

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2016, 09:13:51 AM »
Great Post, O

Blessed Be !!!!

Nick

Thank you!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Gordon

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2016, 11:47:25 AM »
Owl

First question on the comprehensive detail in your #9.

Am I right in thinking that the likes of Samhain have Celtic origins in northern Europe? I was wondering to what extent the Romans, who were known for assimilating stuff, incorporated any of these into their festivals. For example, was their Saturnalia part of their Mediterranean culture or does in relate to cultures they encountered that had forms of mid-winter festivals?

Anchorman

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2016, 12:29:11 PM »
For what its' worth, I know a bit about Celtic spirituality, the Christian side of it at any rate, some of which is drawn from pagan tradition in the pre-Celtic Dalriada. Elsewhere, I've often mired myself in the very complex convoluted Egyptian religion(s) which existed before the Greeks tried to amalgamate them into one 'religion'. part of which found its way into Roman culture - the Isis cult - which bore little or no resemblence to the several personifications of that deity in Egypt below the Delta.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

trippymonkey

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2016, 03:34:32 PM »
(  I know a bit about Celtic spirituality, the Christian side of it at any rate )

Is it me or does that sound contradictory ???

Anchorman

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2016, 03:37:24 PM »
(  I know a bit about Celtic spirituality, the Christian side of it at any rate )

Is it me or does that sound contradictory ???



Must be you.....'cos there's a great deal of Celtic spirituality as a hangover from pre Christian days inherant in the worship initiated by Columcille on Iona.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

trippymonkey

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2016, 03:39:24 PM »
But does that mean it's 'IN' Christianity at all?

Anchorman

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2016, 03:41:40 PM »
But does that mean it's 'IN' Christianity at all?
[/quote



I don't want to derail Owl's thread.
Should you wish, start a new thread on the Christian board.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Owlswing

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2016, 03:44:39 PM »

Owl

First question on the comprehensive detail in your #9.

Am I right in thinking that the likes of Samhain have Celtic origins in northern Europe? I was wondering to what extent the Romans, who were known for assimilating stuff, incorporated any of these into their festivals. For example, was their Saturnalia part of their Mediterranean culture or does in relate to cultures they encountered that had forms of mid-winter festivals?


Please give me a little time to investigate. I have never, to be truthful, investigated most of the kind of connections that you refer to. As I have said, most of my research has been into the Craft side.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2016, 03:47:09 PM »
But does that mean it's 'IN' Christianity at all?

Quote

I don't want to derail Owl's thread.
Should you wish, start a new thread on the Christian board.

Thanks for that, Anchorman, you saved me from saying it.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Anchorman

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2016, 03:48:50 PM »
Sorry I diverted it a wee bit!
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Owlswing

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2016, 03:57:09 PM »

For what its' worth, I know a bit about Celtic spirituality, the Christian side of it at any rate, some of which is drawn from pagan tradition in the pre-Celtic Dalriada. Elsewhere, I've often mired myself in the very complex convoluted Egyptian religion(s) which existed before the Greeks tried to amalgamate them into one 'religion'. part of which found its way into Roman culture - the Isis cult - which bore little or no resemblence to the several personifications of that deity in Egypt below the Delta.


As I stated in the OP, I can only answer from my own experience and knowledge which quite clearly, on the deatils of the spiritual side is limited to those parts used in the rituals of my Coven. In the interest of expanding said meagre knowledge I would be happy to hear, again as stated in the OP, and learn, from what you know.

I have read some minor works on the Egyptian pantheon which is quite large and the interactions between the various deities is realy rather convoluted. This is one of the reasons that I have not yet delved into them in any depth.

It looks like I will have to start!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Anchorman

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2016, 04:09:11 PM »
When I studied for my degree in Egyptology, we were advised to have either paracetamol or alcohol in close proximity when we dealt with the religion. As religion filled most of the three millenia of history, it was a pain filled - but happy - time...... Seriously, I remember trying to count the creation myths and creator gods rat one point. I got to eight different creation stories (I've found another two since) and the creator god named variously as Atum, Nefertum, Geb, Shu, Re, Amun, Ma'at, Nut or, in one rather confused account, Horus. It gets more complicated from there......maybe the Greeks had the right idea when they tried to compose a central theology for Egypt - written in Alexandria, popular amongst the Greco-Romans, but blithely ignored by the Egyptians, who managed to continue to juggle several contending theology strands at the same time and live perfectly happily with the result! (And I haven't even mentioned the Aten.....)
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Owlswing

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2016, 05:39:43 PM »

When I studied for my degree in Egyptology, we were advised to have either paracetamol or alcohol in close proximity when we dealt with the religion. As religion filled most of the three millenia of history, it was a pain filled - but happy - time...... Seriously, I remember trying to count the creation myths and creator gods rat one point. I got to eight different creation stories (I've found another two since) and the creator god named variously as Atum, Nefertum, Geb, Shu, Re, Amun, Ma'at, Nut or, in one rather confused account, Horus. It gets more complicated from there......maybe the Greeks had the right idea when they tried to compose a central theology for Egypt - written in Alexandria, popular amongst the Greco-Romans, but blithely ignored by the Egyptians, who managed to continue to juggle several contending theology strands at the same time and live perfectly happily with the result! (And I haven't even mentioned the Aten.....)


Aten - was he not the one who tried to change the entire religious structure? The one with a curious cranial and facial structure whose every statue was destroyed upon his death?

Or, as is more likely, have I got about fifteen different threads totally mixed up?
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An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Anchorman

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Re: What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2016, 06:18:23 PM »
That was Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten - the one certain lunatic fringe Christians claim as a proto-Moses, and other rubbish in similar style. The truth is a lot more complicated, though. The weird iconography seems to portray him and his wife, Nefertiti, not as mis-shapen freaks, but as Shu and Tefnut, brother-sister deities associated with their 'father' Ra, in creation. The Aten was an evolving concept over several centuries - a solar deity incorporating the deified aspect of kingship (How's that for jargon?)
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."