What do other posters on this Forum really KNOW about Paganism/witchcraft

[Anchorman]

If you're interested in Akhenaten and the thoughts behind his religious revolution, this page http://www.osirisnet.net/docu/akhenaton/e_akhenaton_02.htm shows the evolution of the name of the deity - and you'll note it's far more traditionally Egyptian than many 'monotheist advocates' might have you believe. If you're up to a read, Nicolas Reeves brilliant "Akhenaten: Egypt's false prophet' is definately worth a look.

[Owlswing]

Owl

First question on the comprehensive detail in your #9.

Am I right in thinking that the likes of Samhain have Celtic origins in northern Europe? I was wondering to what extent the Romans, who were known for assimilating stuff, incorporated any of these into their festivals. For example, was their Saturnalia part of their Mediterranean culture or does in relate to cultures they encountered that had forms of mid-winter festivals?

The possible/probable cross-pollination between the various pre-Christian societies is, as far as I can see, one of those historical events that will, probably, never be fully explained or understood to the satisfaction of anyone involvd in the discussion. For Paganism especially the Rconstructionists!

I am of the opinion that, with various invasions, conquerings and assimilations and interbreedings, it was almost inevitable. What I do not see as being likely is an imposition of one groups beliefs upon another beyond a local area; certainly I do not see, from my researches, so far anyway, signs of an imposition as vicious or violent as that seen during the imposition of Christianity.

Even a cursory look at the deities of Greece, Rome, Egypt, Scandinavia, Germany, Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England shows that the same deities appear with the same powers or attributes but "local" names.       

[Owlswing]

Sorry I diverted it a wee bit!

No matter, you point is actually well taken.

There are very early churches in England , and probably elsewhere in the British Isles, where pre-Christian symbols are found carved into wood or stone - the most commonly reported are carvings of the Sheela Na Gig, the grotesque female figure holding wide open her exaggerated genitals. Needless to say they are now hard to find - those that could be found easily were removed P D Q.

Many of the early Christian churches were built on sites where Pagan festivals/rituals were held as it made it easier to get the locals into church at a place they were used to using for worship.   

Ditto, of course, the practice of placing Christian celebrations on dates that were familiar to Pagans; Christmas, for some unknown reason, comes instantly to mind.

Plus the veneration of the Virgin to replace the Pagan Goddesses.

[Owlswing]

If you're interested in Akhenaten and the thoughts behind his religious revolution, this page http://www.osirisnet.net/docu/akhenaton/e_akhenaton_02.htm shows the evolution of the name of the deity - and you'll note it's far more traditionally Egyptian than many 'monotheist advocates' might have you believe. If you're up to a read, Nicolas Reeves brilliant "Akhenaten: Egypt's false prophet' is definately worth a look.

I have (finally) got round to printing the page you quote above - a quick flash through it gave me a grin - the "Short" bibliography! I would sure as eggs are eggs hate to see the "Full" version.

[SweetPea]

Owlswing

What are your thoughts on Saturnalia? I knew Saturn and Satan were linked but in this article it says Satan is behind all pagan deities. Now, take a deep breath before you reply, I'm not trying to catch you out, but to get to the truth.

 https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots/Neglected_Commandments/Idolatry/Satan%27s_Birthday

[Nearly Sane]

Owlswing

What are your thoughts on Saturnalia? I knew Saturn and Satan were linked but in this article it says Satan is behind all pagan deities. Now, take a deep breath before you reply, I'm not trying to catch you out, but to get to the truth.

 https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots/Neglected_Commandments/Idolatry/Satan%27s_Birthday

Begging the question about Saturn/Satan so you are not actually discussing anything

[SweetPea]

Begging the question about Saturn/Satan so you are not actually discussing anything

Well, I'm just wondering if Owlswing agrees with the article because I don't agree with some of it.

[Anchorman]

No matter, you point is actually well taken. There are very early churches in England , and probably elsewhere in the British Isles, where pre-Christian symbols are found carved into wood or stone - the most commonly reported are carvings of the Sheela Na Gig, the grotesque female figure holding wide open her exaggerated genitals. Needless to say they are now hard to find - those that could be found easily were removed P D Q. Many of the early Christian churches were built on sites where Pagan festivals/rituals were held as it made it easier to get the locals into church at a place they were used to using for worship. Ditto, of course, the practice of placing Christian celebrations on dates that were familiar to Pagans; Christmas, for some unknown reason, comes instantly to mind. Plus the veneration of the Virgin to replace the Pagan Goddesses.

You don't need to look at churches to see the transition from Paganism to Christianity, though. The Pictish cstones of the eighth and ninth centuries show an amalgum of both - almost as if those for whom they were carved were hedging their bets! There's a reasonably comprehensive page with some good images here: http://www.ancient.eu/picts/

[Owlswing]

Owlswing

What are your thoughts on Saturnalia? I knew Saturn and Satan were linked but in this article it says Satan is behind all pagan deities. Now, take a deep breath before you reply, I'm not trying to catch you out, but to get to the truth.

 https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots/Neglected_Commandments/Idolatry/Satan%27s_Birthday

Can I get one thing about pagans and Paganism sorted immediately.

No issue is likely to get a the mentioner consigned more quickly to the title of "fuck-wit" quicker than that of Satan, Satanism et al.

One of them prime tenets of Paganism is personal responsibility! (Again I must say, this is to the best of my knowledge and understanding - others may differ) This is accepted by EVERY pagan that I have ever met.

It is enshrined in one of the only two Laws for pagans that I am aware of - the Law of Threefold Return - "That which you send out for good or ill shall be returned to you threefold".

Pagans do NOT believe in a little red man with horns, a forked tail and a trident whispering in our ear nto get us to do any number and sort of naughty things. So any attempt to connect anything to do with Satan to Paganism is bo . . . -  nonsense.

I was born a Jew, by descent only - I never practised - the last practising Jew in the family was my maternal grandmother and she gave up practice as a result, she said, of the God of the Jews allowing virtually her entire family to be murdered in Auschwitz - and even she could never understand the way in which Satan was villified by both Jews and Christians as it was said, during R E classes, when asked why, if the Christian God was omnipotent, Satan/the Devil was able to operate in the world.

The answer given was that Satan/the Devil was allowed to operate so as to test the faith of humans and to mete out punishment to those whose faith was found wanting.

In view of the Romans having no respect for or connection with the Jews or, until Constantine, the Christians, I cannot see how the Saturnalia could in anyway be connected to Satan.

I have, on this forum read a lot of Christian bo . . . nonsense this is the first time that I have, via this forum, read Jewish       bo . . . nonsense.       

[Owlswing]

Owlswing

I knew Saturn and Satan were linked

I didn't! So much for a Grammar School education - to age 15 anyway!

[Nearly Sane]

Well, I'm just wondering if Owlswing agrees with the article because I don't agree with some of it.

which is entirely irrelevant to the statement where you stated Saturn and Satan are linked

[Owlswing]

Which is entirely irrelevant to the statement where you stated Saturn and Satan are linked

Saturn in the Saturnalia has nothing to do with the planet, the planet is named after the Roman god to whom the Saturnalia was dedicated, a god of agriculture.

The Saturnalia was the a festival of enjoyment of the bounty that Saturn provided, food and wine in huge quantities and was a huge week-long festival.

Early in the article quoted by SweetPea the (un-named) author states "Behind all Pagan deitiy worship stands Satan himself". He then gives a list of names of deities which he states represent Satan, a list that includes Yahweh! Yahweh was, as far as I can recollect, a god or the god of Israel and Judah.

However I note the spelling in the article shows that the author is an American, and this makes the whole matter a can of worms better left with the lid on it I think.

I knew that American Christians, for the most part, viewed Paganism and pagans as the work of the Devil, mainly because of the connection to (modern) witches, but I had most definitely NOT realised the same applied to American Jewry.   
 

[Brownie]

I see you quoted this, Owl:  Behind all Pagan deity worship stands Satan himself. I also picked up on it - what a dogmatic statement!  No room for discussion there.

It's a very unpleasant article, I wonder who wrote it.  Biased or what?  That's the thing about Wiki, useful though it is most of the time, anyone can write anything.

Good to know SP disagrees with some of it.

[Owlswing]

I see you quoted this, Owl:  Behind all Pagan deity worship stands Satan himself. I also picked up on it - what a dogmatic statement!  No room for discussion there.

It's a very unpleasant article, I wonder who wrote it.  Biased or what?  That's the thing about Wiki, useful though it is most of the time, anyone can write anything.

Good to know SP disagrees with some of it.

I looked both at the fact that it had a Wikibooks address and also that it quotes no author's name and I was going to ignore the question, but having read the article I thought that I might as well answer as it is no skin off my nose and it just might help SweetPea.

I would now like to hear exactly which bits of the article he disagrees with.

[SweetPea]

Owlswing

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I was confused with the Saturnalia/Satan if any, connection. I also don't go along with some of the Hebrew roots theology.

My disagreements were with Jesus Christ being thought of as a sun deity and also God known as Yahweh.... 'Yah' is a moon god.

Re Satan in paganism, this I struggle with too, as for me as a Christian I see all nature as God's creation.... so how can Satan be in nature?

Re the Wikibooks link.... I'm with you and Brownie on this.... Wiki can be biased so we have to use discernment.

*******

Nearly.... look-up Saturn and Satan.. 

[Nearly Sane]

Owlswing

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I was confused with the Saturnalia/Satan if any, connection. I also don't go along with some of the Hebrew roots theology.

My disagreements were with Jesus Christ being thought of as a sun deity and also God known as Yahweh.... 'Yah' is a moon god.

Re Satan in paganism, this I struggle with too, as for me as a Christian I see all nature as God's creation.... so how can Satan be in nature?

Re the Wikibooks link.... I'm with you and Brownie on this.... Wiki can be biased so we have to use discernment.

*******

Nearly.... look-up Saturn and Satan..

Ah evasion thy name is Sweetpea

[SweetPea]

Ah evasion thy name is Sweetpea

So what have I evaded, Nearly?

[Nearly Sane]

So what have I evaded, Nearly?

I asked you to justify a statement but instead if doing that you ask me to do your work for you - evasion.

There is no real link between Saturn and Satan

[Brownie]

You are right, there isn't

SweetP didn't think there was, she just wasn't sure.
SP:  I was confused with the Saturnalia/Satan if any, connection

I too didn't think there was a connection but have heard it said before so good to clarify.

SweetPea (you probably already know this but thought I would say being as it was mentioned;  forgive me if it looks as though I'm trying to teach how to suck eggs!), Yah is a shortened form of YHVH, the Hebrew name for God.  No vowels because the name of God was considered too sacred to be pronounced, hence the many names by which God is known, eg El Shaddai.   

The Rastafarians pronounce and spell it, "Jah", as in hallelujah=God be praised

Yah or Lah is the name for the Egyptian Moon god.

Some Christians have been known to use the name, "Yahweh" (from YHVH) for God.  The Jerusalem Bible did so at one time but so many people objected and the newer translations don't use it.  Thank goodness.

(Edited to add a bit and punctuate)

[Nearly Sane]

You are right, there isn't

SweetP didn't think there was, she just wasn't sure.
SP:  I was confused with the Saturnalia/Satan if any, connection

SweetPea (you probably already know this but thought I would say being as it was mentioned;  forgive me if it looks as though I'm trying to teach how to suck eggs!), Yah is a shortened form of YHVH, the Hebrew name for God.  No vowels because the name of God was considered too sacred to be pronounced, hence the many names by which God is known, eg El Shaddai.   The Rastafarians pronounce and spell it, "Jah".

Yah or Lah is the name for the Egyptian Moon god.

Some Christians have been known to use the name, "Yahweh" (from YHVH) for God.  The Jerusalem Bible did so at one time but so many people objected and the newer translations don't use it.  Thank goodness.

Yes she did and does, see the post where she posts the link where she states

'I knew Saturn and Satan were linked but in this article it says Satan is behind all pagan deities.'

[Anchorman]

You are right, there isn't SweetP didn't think there was, she just wasn't sure. SP:  I was confused with the Saturnalia/Satan if any, connection I too didn't think there was a connection but have heard it said before so good to clarify. SweetPea (you probably already know this but thought I would say being as it was mentioned;  forgive me if it looks as though I'm trying to teach how to suck eggs!), Yah is a shortened form of YHVH, the Hebrew name for God.  No vowels because the name of God was considered too sacred to be pronounced, hence the many names by which God is known, eg El Shaddai. The Rastafarians pronounce and spell it, "Jah", as in hallelujah=God be praised Yah or Lah is the name for the Egyptian Moon god. Some Christians have been known to use the name, "Yahweh" (from YHVH) for God.  The Jerusalem Bible did so at one time but so many people objected and the newer translations don't use it.  Thank goodness. (Edited to add a bit and punctuate) That bit about 'Yah' beeing the name for an Egyptian moomn god..... That opens a bucketload of worms! Firstly, there were no vowels in the Egyptian hieroglyphs. However, the name of the deity, which seems to be an aspect of Amun or Min in his ithyphallic form), is probably better read as 'Ah'  - and forms the root of several Royal names in the second Intermediate period and eighteenth dynasty - e.g Ahotep, Ahemes-nefertari, King Ahmose, etc. The name 'YAH' first apears on a wall on Karnak temple built by Amenhotep III. to commemorate a minor campaign in what is now Palestine.

[Brownie]

That bit about 'Yah' beeing the name for an Egyptian moomn god..... That opens a bucketload of worms! Firstly, there were no vowels in the Egyptian hieroglyphs. However, the name of the deity, which seems to be an aspect of Amun or Min in his ithyphallic form), is probably better read as 'Ah'  - and forms the root of several Royal names in the second Intermediate period and eighteenth dynasty - e.g Ahotep, Ahemes-nefertari, King Ahmose, etc. The name 'YAH' first apears on a wall on Karnak temple built by Amenhotep III. to commemorate a minor campaign in what is now Palestine.

Thanks Anchorman!  This is marvellous stuff.  Knew I'd learn a lot.
It's possible, do you think, that "Yah" is a word or part of a word that crops up in many languages? Particularly in that part of the world.  Without looking it up, I seem to remember the word,"Lah", also referring to a deity.

[Anchorman]

Thanks Anchorman!  This is marvellous stuff.  Knew I'd learn a lot. It's possible, do you think, that "Yah" is a word or part of a word that crops up in many languages? Particularly in that part of the world.  Without looking it up, I seem to remember the word,"Lah", also referring to a deity.

Hi, Brownie. The letter 'l' is somewhat problematic in heiroglyph or  hieratic texts. There's plenty of evidence for names starting 'Ya-' (though not Yah) from the Hyksos occupation - a king Yacobaaam, for example, shows the Semitic roots of the word. 'Yah' occurse a few times in the New Kingdom, but it's in the late period - from the 26th dynasty, that YHWH had a functioning, sacrificial temple at Elephantine, on Egypt's southern border - to serve the Jewish mercenaries imported by Psametik I in order to stop a resurgent Kushite invasion. There is evidence of a second temple to YHWH in the Delta in Ptolemaic times.

[Brownie]

That is well kushti, Anchorman.
I'll read it again tomorrow and hope some of it is retained  .

Tiṣbaḥ 'ala khayr.

[Sassy]

Studied it longer than 10 years my nephews partner has been a white witch over 20 years.
Not sure why someone would think they know more than the high priest and priestess of white magic or even Doreen Irvine who wrote from 'Witchcraft to Christ.'
I believe there is too much having researched it for ONE person to know more or better than those in the thick of it.

In 1973, Englishwoman Doreen Irvine published her autobiography, From Witchcraft to Christ. Just eight years earlier, an exorcist had expelled 47 demons from her body. Years before that, she was Queen of the Black Witches of Europe.
Since the late '60s, Irvine has given her Christian testimony countless times. She has appeared on 100 Huntley Street and in Christian documentaries about the dangers of the occult. (1) Her story has been cited by many Christian authors, including Russ Parker and the late Dr. Kurt Koch, as a reliable account of what witches and Satanists do (like many "former Satanists", Irvine used the terms "witchcraft" and "Satanism" interchangeably).
She was the first of many born again Christians who claimed to be ex-witches and/or ex-Satanists, among them women who claimed to have been high priestesses in destructive Satanic cults, so her testimony provided a sort of blueprint. Among such testimonies, many of the same elements recur time and again:

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