Islamification in the UK.

[Anchorman]

Since the O/P is "Islamification in the UK"; I have yet to find any evidence of it. There may well be areas where a higher proportion of Moslems live; equally, there are otheres where hardly any reside. And since there is no unity in the idea of 'UK' anyway, the idea of Islamification in it is spurious.

[wigginhall]

Yes, I'm baffled by the idea of Islamification.   OK, there are halal butchers, and mosques, and headscarves.   But the idea seems to be that we are going to be taken over.   Well, I live surrounded by Muslim neighbours, shopkeepers, friends, and they are friendly and OK.   I used to chat with my old Sufi friend about religion and God and football.    What's going to happen?  Oh, I forgot, we have a Muslim mayor - aagh, threatening Jaws-type music, this is just the beginning of Islamageddon.

[JP]

You mean the Sharia councils that make decisions on religious issues for people who come to them for guidance? Even the ones that are part of the UK arbitration services cannot overrule regular British courts.

Not that I am a fan of sharia councils - there have been allegations that they discriminate against Muslim women seeking a religious divorce. But I don't see this as Islamification - it is part of UK culture to allow people to use arbitration or mediation services of their choosing.

If it were only religious issues, arbitration or mediation.

These people say otherwise.

http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/New-Report-Sharia-Law-in-Britain_fixed.pdf

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Which page do they say that?

For example on Page 9 it says "In one case, the stabbing of a Somali youth was dealt with in a Sharia Council.(29)"

I looked at note 29 on Page 9 and it says:

Sharia court frees London knife youths, This is London, 8 February 2008: http://www.thisislondon.
co.uk/standard/article-23436339-sharia-court-frees-london-knife-youths.do

The link doesn't work so I Googled it and got an Evening Standard article, which says:

Youth worker Aydarus Yusuf, 29, who was involved in setting up the hearing, said a group of Somali youths were arrested by police on suspicion of stabbing another Somali teenager.

The victim's family told officers the matter would be settled out of court and the suspects were released on bail. A hearing was convened and elders ordered the assailants to compensate the victim.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/sharia-court-frees-london-knife-youths-6678487.html

So the Sharia court did not free London knife youths since the Sharia court has no power to detain them - the British courts freed them on bail in accordance with British criminal law.

Do you have any actual evidence of Sharia councils being permitted to do anything more than offer a mediation or arbitration service?

What is worrying is if people, whatever their background, allow themselves to be bullied or discriminated against in mediation or arbitration and do not challenge this in British civil courts. Unfortunately, as the court system is expensive to participate in, I can understand why parties choose the less expensive mediation option. And I also understand the argument that British courts and Family law can be discriminatory towards men.

According to page 10 of your link the Muslim Arbitration Tribunals (MAT) "are only permitted to conduct arbitration on issues such as commercial and inheritance disputes. Those decisions could be challenged in a civil court if not consistent with UK law or public policy but rarely are. Carla Revere, Chair of the Lawyers Secular Society, says: “Research has revealed that the MATs are purporting to conduct binding arbitrations on family law issues, and that decisions in areas like inheritance are inconsistent with UK law or public policy.”.....

Page 13 of your link states:

Moreover, whilst MATs purport to arbitrate in family cases, they have no legal jurisdiction to do so as the Family Courts retain jurisdiction over family cases due to the sensitive nature of these disputes and their consequences. Although the Arbitration Act 1996 does not clearly exclude family matters from its jurisdiction, nevertheless there is legal authority confirming that this is and should be the case.58 This point was confirmed by former Minister of Justice Jack Straw speaking in Parliament on 24 November 2008 when he said in response to a question about Sharia law courts in the UK: “Arbitration is not a system of dispute resolution that may be used in family cases. Therefore no draft consent orders embodying the terms of an agreement reached by the use of a Sharia Council have been enforced within the meaning of the Arbitration Act 1996 in matrimonial proceedings.”

[Udayana]

What are the arrangements for regulating and overseeing the operation and activities of Sharia councils?

As far as I can see there don't appear to be any. This is problematic.

For a period there were also "Sharia patrols" operating in the East End, which could have been taken to be a sign of Islamification ... these seem to be have been stopped following criticism by the East London Mosque and a couple of prosecutions.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Some countries regulate and oversee mediation services but currently in Britain I don't think there is a regulatory body that mediators have to sign up to or be bound by.

Given the risk of injustice, mediation in civil matters is a voluntary process and either party is free to walk away and refuse to settle and any settlement that is contrary to public policy will not be enforced.

I agree that the illegal Sharia patrols were wrong and quite rightly stopped.

[wigginhall]

Reminds me of the eruvs in London, which are Jewish areas, demarcated by various means, e.g. fishing wire.

Yeah, but come on, that's different.  The Jews killed Jesus, OK, but the Muslimahs worship the devil, don't they?   They're all secret IS members, and their beards contain high levels of C4.   No, hang on, Muslimahs don't grow beards, but just give them half a chance!

[Brownie]

Reminds me of the eruvs in London, which are Jewish areas, demarcated by various means, e.g. fishing wire.

I did think of the eruvs in London - and other places - and the law's attitude (generally) that the Chassidic are a "self regulating community".  Who thinks there is anything wrong with that?

Since the O/P is "Islamification in the UK"; I have yet to find any evidence of it. There may well be areas where a higher proportion of Moslems live; equally, there are otheres where hardly any reside. And since there is no unity in the idea of 'UK' anyway, the idea of Islamification in it is spurious.

Also areas where all sorts of people of diverse race, culture and religion live which is how it is where I live and no-one appears to think anything of it.

I've heard it said that where there are areas, such as that little pocket in the Borough of Tower Hamlets overwhelmingly populated by Muslims, non-Muslims feel 'foreign' and insecure if they venture there.
(To some extent it must be much the same in the hub of Stamford Hill.)
Nothing to be scared of, I would have thought.  Hardly 'no-go' areas which are a different matter.

There's no answer to that, people can't help the way they feel.  I probably wouldn't notice  but I know other people do.  The only thing to do is try to encourage those people to use reason.  Prejudice is, after all, built on fear.

Walter said (previous page):  "and as an example I was held in a back room for a couple of hours against my will while the merits of the Qur'an were strongly related to me . There was no violence involved but it was a bit unnerving at the time."

I would be seriously disturbed by an experience like that and wonder if Walter will share the circumstances with us.  It's something that would be illegal in this country.

[trippymonkey]

Serious question
Do we have Hindu, Jewish & other religion courts here in the UK?

Nick

[Anchorman]

They have no legal jurisdiction. The Kirk has a court system as well - has had since the 1540's. (And, trust me, the procedeures haven't changed much since then either...more's the pitty) Although the latter may involve solicitors and even advocates, it has no legal status unless the charges impinge on Scots law, when in very rare cases, the two may still combine.

[Brownie]

Paraphrased from what Gabriella said: are Sharia councils permitted to do anything more than offer a mediation or arbitration service?

I have not heard of Jewish or Hindu "courts" but certainly Orthodox Jewish communities are considered by the police to be self regulating.  They deal with people in their community in their own way quite effectively.  There are obvious exception, eg if there was a murder the cops would be called.

[trippymonkey]

B
An excellent idea & trust our Jewish communities to sort themselves out like this.

Keep it IN the family, eh?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The Jewish Beth Din courts have been operating in Britain for many years - again as a an arbitration or mediation service or to give religious advice in civil/ personal matters, not criminal cases.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sharia-law-uk-britains-jewish-beth-din-court-example-muslim-legal-system-1540381

[Brownie]

B
An excellent idea & trust our Jewish communities to sort themselves out like this.

Keep it IN the family, eh?

Yes.  Of course it isn't always possible but it seems to work quite well the majority of the time and the community likes it.

[Hope]

I hope you are right but its not my experience.
I worked for about 10 years in the places I mentioned and what I saw was well established communities. They were not communities I felt welcome in.

Walter, I work in what is now called Cardiff Bay, but was the old Cardiff Docks area where there was a thriving Somali Muslim population dating from the late-19th/early-20th century.  When the redevelopment took place, many of these folk were forcibly relocated to the St Mellons area of north-east Cardiff.  However, there is still a sizeable community who stayed there.  On the afternoon of the day that the EU referendum result was announced, I was walking from the Bay to Cardiff Central Station and walked between three twenty-somethings who were talking on the pavement.  As I - a white 60-year-old - passed them, one of them asked me what I thought of the result.  My response was initially guarded, but I suddenly realised that 10 minutes of reasoned and respectful discussion had taken place.  OK the fact that, as someone who voted to remain, I was 'on their side' as it were ensured that there was no animosity - but I regularly walk through that same area on my way to and from work, and I feel no sense of fear, 5 months on.

I agree that there are some areas of the UK where such a feeling can exist - but those areas don't have to have anything to do with Muslims.  There is another part of Cardiff, Ely, which has a mixed population, but predominantly white Caucasian and Afro-Caribbean - and probably majority Catholic - where I do feel at risk when I'm walking through it.  It has long been known as the criminal and criminal violence centre of the city.

[Owlswing]

If by "Islamification" Walter means Muslims - and I mean Muslims who cannot be mistaken for any other people of Middle Eastern origin or appearance - being given "preferential treatment" on the basis of their religion over all those of all other religions I can think, or have only seen, one uinstance of this and that is that banks and building societies require motorcyclists to remove their helmets but do no require Muslim women to remove the full-face veil.

Also, but a rather more OTT point, the robes and veil hide the sex of the individual and offer far greater scope for the hiding of weapons than Western dress.

Demands for the legalisation of Sharia Courts, on the condition that they only be used for the trials of Muslims accused of crimes against Islam and that any punishments handed down are aceptable within U K law and are applied equally to males and females (and I think that this last would be the larger stumbling block, as it would in the case of gays) as far as I can see this hardly qualifies as Islamification.

Now, if they demand my daughters wear a veil . . .

On my ex-wife it would probably be a good idea!

[JP]

Does a de facto blasphemy law which works only for Islam count?

[L.A.]

There is no reason why civil disputes shouldn't be dealt with by an Islamic body IF all parties are agreeable (though it shouldn't be titled a 'court') , but they should not be involved with any matters that breach criminal law.

[Brownie]

Yes.

[Bubbles]

Some countries regulate and oversee mediation services but currently in Britain I don't think there is a regulatory body that mediators have to sign up to or be bound by.

Given the risk of injustice, mediation in civil matters is a voluntary process and either party is free to walk away and refuse to settle and any settlement that is contrary to public policy will not be enforced.

I agree that the illegal Sharia patrols were wrong and quite rightly stopped.

I was going to mention the Sharia patrols, also posters being put up indicating western style dress was not acceptable in certain streets.

In some places there are very small numbers of very radical Muslims, but they are concentrated into a small area ( Luton) therefore they give a false impression of the Muslim community IMO.

 Not sure about other places.

Anjem Choudary ( the islamaphobes hero) went to Luton because of the radicals there.

Other than that, I don't think we are radicalised, and most Muslims I've met seem to think Anjem Choudary is an unqualified idiot.

Unfortunately it's people like Anjem Choudary that get the most media attention.

[Brownie]

Yes they do.  It's the same with every group of people who have a distinct culture and/or religion.  Not fair but how life is unfortunately.

In all honestly, I don't think it is right to put posters up giving instructions about how people should dress.  It is so exclusive.   We don't actually have the power or right to own and rule the little areas in which we live even if we have some local influence.  Those who carry on as though they do have to be challenged.

Even the eruv areas do not exude any hostility or disapproval towards others who wander in and out of them or even live in or near them.

Thankfully there are far more areas that are mixed and have a live and let live atmosphere.

[Owlswing]

Does a de facto blasphemy law which works only for Islam count?

Not if brought before a non-Sharia court.

Blasphemy hasd not been illegal for some time in the UK - however, I have always said that what Britons call tolerance - Isalm sees as weakness. A weakness that Islamic  fundamentalists will and do exploit to the greatest extent possible without legal sanction.


Ref: see Choudry!

[JP]

Not if brought before a non-Sharia court.

Blasphemy hasd not been illegal for some time in the UK - however, I have always said that what Britons call tolerance - Isalm sees as wakness. A weakness that Islamic  fundamentalists will and do exploit to the greatest extent possible without legal sanction.


Ref: see Choudry!

I know there was another thread on it but I do not mean that is has to be brought to a "court", just a general inability, or fear to have a laugh at Islam in the way it happened with Lewis Smith.

It is difficult to deny that Islam has had an impact on life in the UK, however I suppose it depends on how you define Islamification.

[Owlswing]

I know there was another thread on it but I do not mean that is has to be brought to a "court", just a general inability, or fear to have a laugh at Islam in the way it happened with Lewis Smith.

It is difficult to deny that Islam has had an impact on life in the UK, however I suppose it depends on how you define Islamification.

Hence my reference to Choudry - eight years of preaching what would have had a Christian or a Pagan in the slammer in a matter of seconds before someone had the guts to decide that the law is a ass.

[Bubbles]

I know there was another thread on it but I do not mean that is has to be brought to a "court", just a general inability, or fear to have a laugh at Islam in the way it happened with Lewis Smith.

It is difficult to deny that Islam has had an impact on life in the UK, however I suppose it depends on how you define Islamification.

It depends where you live.

If you live in a street where threatening posters go up, and people try and terrorise you into following sharia law, then you are going to think so. Or if you are getting stopped in the street.
If you hear the call to prayer instead of church bells, then it probably looks that way.

I don't, even though I have a Mosque about a mile away and the Muslim women are often seen wearing niquabs in town.

If you happen to live next door to militant Muslims then it's going to seem that way.

I can't say Islam has any impact on my life, other than seeing ladies in headscarfs and niquabs.

I suppose I see halal meat in supermarkets, but I also see kosher, and polish and Italian. ( I like the variety).
But I wouldn't want to live in some parts of Luton and not just because of the very small number of radical Muslims but also because it's the home of the EDL and I find them annoying to say the least.

If I lived in Luton and had someone tell me in the street that I looked undressed because I wore western style clothes, then yes I would feel threatened by it.

But no Muslim women dressed in a niquab has ever said anything like that to me.

So my guess is there is a tiny minority who make people feel like that.

A bit like most white British people don't normally go round ripping off Islamic headwear on the streets and in supermarkets saying its oppression.

A tiny minority do these things, most Muslims and other groups don't. It's the minority on both sides causing fear.

Yet fear of these things are spread, until everyone starts feeling threatened.

The answer is for people to talk, Muslims feel threatened too sometimes.

These tiny minorities make everyone uncomfortable.

This is Luton.

https://youtu.be/HyWvEV8MOOs

Again it is only a minority doing this, most Muslims from Luton are not like this at all.