Author Topic: Islamification in the UK.  (Read 10436 times)

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2016, 01:32:52 PM »
Gabriella: "Pat Condell calling someone mentally ill because they dress a different way is probably about as humorous as calling someone mentally ill, stupid or racist because they see a situation a different way."

Quite and it is an attitude I've come across quite a lot on many issues.  Particularly the 'stupid' and 'mentally ill' comments.  "Keep on taking the tablets", or "They need to get some help", etc.  The person saying it will say they were "joking" or being "ironic". 

There are limits.
but my limits may be different from yours. Where does that leave us eh?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2016, 01:49:39 PM »
Actually I was

and if the god of Islam had wanted women to cover their faces , surely he would have provided a flap of skin which could be lowered or raised as appropriate.
Let me guess - on that basis you're against Muslim women wearing clothes too as an act of modesty or privacy - because if the god of Islam had wanted them to wear clothes, surely he would have provided....

 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2016, 01:59:26 PM »
Let me guess - on that basis you're against Muslim women wearing clothes too as an act of modesty or privacy - because if the god of Islam had wanted them to wear clothes, surely he would have provided....
aww c'mon there's a big difference here and you know it , ignoring or trying to defend it is futile ,Gabby.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2016, 02:11:29 PM »
aww c'mon there's a big difference here and you know it , ignoring or trying to defend it is futile ,Gabby.
I am not ignoring that wearing less clothes is different from wearing more clothes. People use clothes, hair, piercings, accessories often as a way of making a statement or as a point of identity. A niqab is just one variation of this. To me it's no different from getting a tattoo on your face - other than that tattoos are more permanent. Does that mean I'm defending tattoos - not really - I'm indifferent.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2016, 02:17:56 PM »
I am not ignoring that wearing less clothes is different from wearing more clothes. People use clothes, hair, piercings, accessories often as a way of making a statement or as a point of identity.  A niqab is just one variation of this. To me it's no different from getting a tattoo on your face - other than that tattoos are more permanent. Does that mean I'm defending tattoos - not really - I'm indifferent
no its not the same at all . you can pretend if you like but the fact remains

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2016, 02:20:00 PM »
I am not ignoring that wearing less clothes is different from wearing more clothes. People use clothes, hair, piercings, accessories often as a way of making a statement or as a point of identity. A niqab is just one variation of this. To me it's no different from getting a tattoo on your face - other than that tattoos are more permanent. Does that mean I'm defending tattoos - not really - I'm indifferent.

Well, why do women cover their breasts?  Isn't this another example of cultural styles?   We know that some cultures did not do this, but generally in the modern world, women do.   Ironically, in the 50s, many women wore headscarves, and you can still see the Queen doing it sometimes.   
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2016, 02:23:42 PM »
no its not the same at all . you can pretend if you like but the fact remains
Just asserting it's not the same and a 'fact' remains is pointless on here and easily dismissed.

It's different because you and Pat see the world a different way - that's not really a compelling argument. You can pretend if you like.

ETA - I'm curious - you seem to think it is ok to tell people they are pretending if they see the world a different way from you, but then write posts saying your critical thinking is not inferior just because you see things differently when it comes to Farage. Are you pretending when you say you like Farage despite the flaws Prof D outlined?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 02:31:06 PM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2016, 02:28:03 PM »
Just asserting it's not the same and a 'fact' remains is pointless on here and easily dismissed.

It's different because you and Pat see the world a different way - that's not really a compelling argument. You can pretend if you like.

It's ammunition for the bigots, and they will always find ammunition.  If it's not clothing it would be something else.   The same thing happened with the Jews, it was their physical appearance, or their clothes, or their financial dealings, or their seduction of white women, on and on it goes. 

http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/images/sturmer/ds3.jpg

Caption: 'Revenge; go where you wanted me to go, evil spirit.'

http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/images/sturmer/ds16a.jpg

Caption:

"Ignorant, lured by gold,
They stand disgraced in Judah’s fold.
Souls poisoned, blood infected,
Disaster broods in their wombs."
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 02:34:13 PM by wigginhall »
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2016, 02:30:57 PM »
It's ammunition for the bigots, and they will always find ammunition.  If it's not clothing it would be something else.   The same thing happened with the Jews, it was their physical appearance, or their clothes, or their financial dealings, or their seduction of white women, on and on it goes. 

http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/images/sturmer/ds3.jpg
if your statement is true , we are both bigots

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2016, 02:40:32 PM »
if your statement is true , we are both bigots
We could all be bigots about something - as I said before, people often believe what they want to believe regardless of the potential doubts that could be created by facts.

Maybe people find it uncomfortable to allow themselves to be less sure in their beliefs. Or maybe challenging or opposing the beliefs of others is just a fun way to pass the time.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2016, 02:47:16 PM »
Some forms of bigotry become very dangerous.   The obvious example was in the 30s, when Jews were targeted by right wing nationalists.   But this was going on in the middle of desperate economic circumstances, with massive unemployment and inflation in Germany, so the two together became (literally) lethal.

We don't have that economic disaster today, so at the moment, I am fairly optimistic that the attacks on Muslims will not lead to a 30s type solution.  However, this depends on a robust economy; if this went down the pan, then I would expect fascism to take advantage, and Muslims would be a prime target (and scape-goat).   But there would plenty of other targets, e.g. trade unions, people on the left, Jews, black people, etc. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2016, 02:48:25 PM »
Just asserting it's not the same and a 'fact' remains is pointless on here and easily dismissed.

It's different because you and Pat see the world a different way - that's not really a compelling argument. You can pretend if you like.

ETA - I'm curious - you seem to think it is ok to tell people they are pretending if they see the world a different way from you, but then write posts saying your critical thinking is not inferior just because you see things differently when it comes to Farage. Are you pretending when you say you like Farage despite the flaws Prof D outlined?
no I'm not pretending . I agree with some of the things Farage says.

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2016, 02:52:12 PM »
Some forms of bigotry become very dangerous.   The obvious example was in the 30s, when Jews were targeted by right wing nationalists.   But this was going on in the middle of desperate economic circumstances, with massive unemployment and inflation in Germany, so the two together became (literally) lethal.

We don't have that economic disaster today, so at the moment, I am fairly optimistic that the attacks on Muslims will not lead to a 30s type solution.  However, this depends on a robust economy; if this went down the pan, then I would expect fascism to take advantage, and Muslims would be a prime target (and scape-goat).   But there would plenty of other targets, e.g. trade unions, people on the left, Jews, black people, etc.
I mostly agree with this, however I dislike Muslims for different reasons.

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2016, 02:53:52 PM »
it appears two threads are converging here

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2016, 03:02:49 PM »
I mostly agree with this, however I dislike Muslims for different reasons.

All Muslims?
Any other religious group?
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2016, 03:04:00 PM »
Some forms of bigotry become very dangerous.   The obvious example was in the 30s, when Jews were targeted by right wing nationalists.   But this was going on in the middle of desperate economic circumstances, with massive unemployment and inflation in Germany, so the two together became (literally) lethal.
Yes I agree.

Economic issues and cultural changes create the environment where bigotry can become dangerous, especially if tapped into or exploited by politicians or influential people in the community.

In Sri Lanka we had Buddhists priests whipping up Buddhist nationalist sentiments against Tamils and Muslim minorities. In Pakistan, the relatively well-educated Ahmaddiya community face appalling bigotry, having previously been appointed to influential positions in the government due to their higher levels of education. In the US there seems to have been a back-lash against the perceived elitism produced by education.

People have to weigh up how far they are prepared to dabble in bigotry and what it will cost them in terms of the type of liberal or conservative society that they want to live in.

Quote
We don't have that economic disaster today, so at the moment, I am fairly optimistic that the attacks on Muslims will not lead to a 30s type solution.  However, this depends on a robust economy; if this went down the pan, then I would expect fascism to take advantage, and Muslims would be a prime target (and scape-goat).   But there would plenty of other targets, e.g. trade unions, people on the left, Jews, black people, etc.
It's not that clear cut. The complication is that plenty of Muslims have their own versions of bigotry. Bigotry seems to breed bigotry so not sure who is going to get off the bigotry merry-go-round first.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2016, 03:05:36 PM »
no I'm not pretending . I agree with some of the things Farage says.
Are you pretending not to see his flaws?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #92 on: November 17, 2016, 03:09:19 PM »
Gabriella wrote:

Quote
It's not that clear cut. The complication is that plenty of Muslims have their own versions of bigotry. Bigotry seems to breed bigotry so not sure who is going to get off the bigotry merry-go-round first.

Absolutely, but the point about the 30s was that you got state-sponsored bigotry, and in fact, terrorism against a minority.    As I said, we are not near that point, partly because the economy is strong and also there is still a tradition in the UK of not persecuting people.   But if you look around Europe, you can see the seeds of right wing persecution of minorities, but those factions do not hold power.  If they do, heaven help us.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #93 on: November 17, 2016, 03:17:06 PM »
Are you pretending not to see his flaws?
I see his flaws, but I doubt they are the same ones you want me to see.

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #94 on: November 17, 2016, 03:19:59 PM »
All Muslims?
Any other religious group?
I don't trust any religious group especially muslims

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #95 on: November 17, 2016, 03:41:30 PM »
Gabriella wrote:

Absolutely, but the point about the 30s was that you got state-sponsored bigotry, and in fact, terrorism against a minority.    As I said, we are not near that point, partly because the economy is strong and also there is still a tradition in the UK of not persecuting people.   But if you look around Europe, you can see the seeds of right wing persecution of minorities, but those factions do not hold power.  If they do, heaven help us.
I think this is where the US Clinton campaign and the pro-Europe campaign found itself out of step with the concerns of people who think that state-sponsored bigotry is a price worth paying to fight the imposition of cultural values they do not agree with or to push back against members of minority groups who also openly display bigotry. Maybe a home-grown bigot is preferable to a foreign bigot? That probably explains the appeal of meaningless slogans and catchy sound-bites that can't actually be implemented - keep it simple and catchy by generalising. Being factually /  statistically accurate would just over-complicate things and many people seem to have short attention spans.

The problem is that generalising about a group of people is clearly factually inaccurate so it ends up being frustrating for people who display bigotry that their concerns get summarily dismissed because they are unable to articulate or communicate them. Somewhere amongst the bigotry there might have been one or two credible arguments but they were not presented in a way that might persuade. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #96 on: November 17, 2016, 03:48:44 PM »
I see his flaws, but I doubt they are the same ones you want me to see.
Maybe.

I see flaws in the niqab but I doubt they are the same ones you want me to see. I live in London, I have travelled a lot - people having different customs that seem strange to me doesn't particularly alarm me. Plus the 3 or 4 women wearing niqab that I have met in my life seemed quite sure of their reasons for doing it - one said her Muslim husband did not approve and thought it was weird and she did it anyway. I have not seen her for 14 years so not sure if they are still married.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #97 on: November 17, 2016, 03:53:17 PM »
I don't trust any religious group especially muslims

Do you have to trust a group of people for anything in particular?  I would think most of us go about our lives, mixing with many people (often not knowing or thinking about their religion, if any), and unless we become personally involved in some way, trust doesn't come into it.  Neither does distrust.

Just saw Gabriella's post about the niqab and my experience of fairly young women in this country who wear it is that they choose to for various reasons, even though their mothers and sisters do not.  Nadiya Hussein is an example of that.  I wonder if, in ten years or so, we will see less of it here.  Who knows?

Like Gabriella, it doesn't bother me in the least and most of the time I don't notice.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #98 on: November 17, 2016, 03:53:48 PM »
Gabby

I like your post #95

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Islamification in the UK.
« Reply #99 on: November 17, 2016, 03:56:27 PM »
Do you have to trust a group of people for anything in particular?  I would think most of us go about our lives, mixing with many people (often not knowing or thinking about their religion, if any), and unless we become personally involved in some way, trust doesn't come into it.  Neither does distrust.

Just saw Gabriella's post about the niqab and my experience of fairly young women in this country who wear it is that they choose to for various reasons, even though their mothers and sisters do not.  Nadiya Hussein is an example of that.  I wonder if, in ten years or so, we will see less of it here.  Who knows?

Like Gabriella, it doesn't bother me in the least and most of the time I don't notice.
I see it rarely now but when I do it comes as a surprise and think to myself  WTF?