What is the best set up that God could have chosen for our reality?

[Khatru]

There are a number of different possible arrangements the creator god could have put into place. Let's have a look at them.

1.  Starting with the universe we actually know - here the ruling deity remains hidden from view. Those of us who are fortunate enough to guess that he exists are rewarded with an eternity of bliss where they can spend all their time singing hosannas and telling the deity how great he is.  It's likely that less than 10% of humanity will do so.  As for the remaining 90+% - they will be held against their will for all eternity in a giant torture chamber where they will be subjected to excruciating pain. There will also be many false religions that you can choose from.

2.  Here's a slightly different scenario where the rules are the same as above.  The difference here is that the ruling god makes himself plainly visible to all of humanity.  With the ruling god out there to be seen, there is no need for faith and all of humanity spend their lives in worship and devotion.  For this they are rewarded with an eternity of telling the god how great he is. 

3. In this scenario the rules are the same as the first example.  The only difference is that the 90+% who don't believe are not punished.  There is no eternal torture, they just return to the oblivion they were in before being born.

4.  In this scenario, which is like the third example, the god chooses who is saved by tossing a coin.  Half get to worship the god for all eternity while the other half get oblivion.

5.  Same as example 4 save that half get an eternity of worship and the other half get an eternity of unimaginable torture.

6.  Here's the final scenario and it's the worst one.  Here we have a universe run by a deity of pure evil.  The only eternity on offer is one of eternal torture to which everyone goes to no matter what.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, how about we rank these scenarios in order of what is most favourable to us?

It's easy to do this and ranking them in descending order from best to worst we get:  2, 4, 3, 5, 1, 6

There you have it, the universe according to Christian doctrine is just one place up from the worst possible scenario.  It's a nasty world we've been born into - it could have been better but the god of the Bible has ensured that his choice is only just a step above the sort of universe that Satan would run if he was in charge.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There are a number of different possible arrangements the creator god could have put into place. Let's have a look at them.

1.  Starting with the universe we actually know - here the ruling deity remains hidden from view. Those of us who are fortunate enough to guess that he exists are rewarded with an eternity of bliss where they can spend all their time singing hosannas and telling the deity how great he is.  It's likely that less than 10% of humanity will do so.  As for the remaining 90+% - they will be held against their will for all eternity in a giant torture chamber where they will be subjected to excruciating pain. There will also be many false religions that you can choose from.

2.  Here's a slightly different scenario where the rules are the same as above.  The difference here is that the ruling god makes himself plainly visible to all of humanity.  With the ruling god out there to be seen, there is no need for faith and all of humanity spend their lives in worship and devotion.  For this they are rewarded with an eternity of telling the god how great he is. 

3. In this scenario the rules are the same as the first example.  The only difference is that the 90+% who don't believe are not punished.  There is no eternal torture, they just return to the oblivion they were in before being born.

4.  In this scenario, which is like the third example, the god chooses who is saved by tossing a coin.  Half get to worship the god for all eternity while the other half get oblivion.

5.  Same as example 4 save that half get an eternity of worship and the other half get an eternity of unimaginable torture.

6.  Here's the final scenario and it's the worst one.  Here we have a universe run by a deity of pure evil.  The only eternity on offer is one of eternal torture to which everyone goes to no matter what.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, how about we rank these scenarios in order of what is most favourable to us?

It's easy to do this and ranking them in descending order from best to worst we get:  2, 4, 3, 5, 1, 6

There you have it, the universe according to Christian doctrine is just one place up from the worst possible scenario.  It's a nasty world we've been born into - it could have been better but the god of the Bible has ensured that his choice is only just a step above the sort of universe that Satan would run if he was in charge.

I can't help feeling that since the multiversasists have talked in numbers up to 10 to the power of 23 possible universes that you've laid out a pretty Spartan range for us.

[Khatru]

I can't help feeling that since the multiversasists have talked in numbers up to 10 to the power of 23 possible universes that you've laid out a pretty Spartan range for us.

I get you, Vlad.

Instead of just 1x any of my six examples, you're saying it's 10 to the power of 23 x any of my six examples.

In other words, my point remains the same.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I get you, Vlad.

Instead of just 1x any of my six examples, you're saying it's 10 to the power of 23 x any of my six examples.

In other words, my point remains the same.

Anybody?

[jeremyp]

There you have it, the universe according to Christian doctrine is just one place up from the worst possible scenario.  It's a nasty world we've been born into - it could have been better but the god of the Bible has ensured that his choice is only just a step above the sort of universe that Satan would run if he was in charge.

There are some Christians who would say that number 3 is the correct scenario.

[jeremyp]

You've also missed two scenarios.

7. There is a god, but there is no heaven or hell, everybody just dies and that is it.
8. Everybody goes to heaven.

[trippymonkey]

So what exactly is in us NOW & ISN'T there when we do what we call'dying' ??

Are we just like an Ever-Ready battery? How are we conscious?

Nick

[Bubbles]

You've also missed two scenarios.

7. There is a god, but there is no heaven or hell, everybody just dies and that is it.
8. Everybody goes to heaven.

I'll go with Jeremy's number 8.

No one deserves ' eternal' torture IMO.

Eternal is an awfully long time, when our lives are so short.

Plus people are not born equal.

Some people are born without empathy or are terribly damaged themselves.

The whole idea of eternal punishment is so unfair and horrible and out of proportion it doesn't make much sense.

Why damn some poor tortured soul, (who may have been abused and not had a good life) for eternity, because they couldn't take any more and ended it?

If there is a heaven, everyone should be able to get there, at some point.

Especially if someone believes in the Christian God.

Love your enemy, forgiveness being a virtue, not judging.......

Why is it, so many Christians think their God doesn't follow his own suggestions?

God ought to love and forgive even Satan, ultimately?

It's one of those conflicts in Christianity that doesn't make sense.

You are asked to display qualities the Christian God doesn't appear to have.......

Not by listening to some of his believers, anyway.

[floo]

I agree with your post, Rose.

[Dicky Underpants]

You've also missed two scenarios.

7. There is a god, but there is no heaven or hell, everybody just dies and that is it.

This was more or less the view of ancient Judaism, right up to the time the Book of Daniel was written (which is a pretty late work in the OT, as you know). The place called Sheol (often translated as Hell) is mentioned quite a few times, but it is clear from the contexts that there isn't much that could be called consciousness or even existence going on there cf. Ecclesiastes.

8. Everybody goes to heaven.

I suppose some areas of Catholic thought might agree with this, though apparently it could take some time for certain individuals. It depends on a) the odd idea which has been posited that though "hell" may exist, there may be no one in it
and
b) The existence of Purgatory, which means you work through your penance for 'sins', but you get to heaven eventually.

[Khatru]

There are some Christians who would say that number 3 is the correct scenario.

Yes, there are indeed although going by my exposure to Christianity, which is limited to Pentacostalism, COE and RCC - it's number 1

[Khatru]

You've also missed two scenarios.

7. There is a god, but there is no heaven or hell, everybody just dies and that is it.
8. Everybody goes to heaven.

I'll take number 7 but number 8 is essentially my number 2.

[Khatru]

I'll go with Jeremy's number 8.

No one deserves ' eternal' torture IMO.

Eternal is an awfully long time, when our lives are so short.

Plus people are not born equal.

Some people are born without empathy or are terribly damaged themselves.

The whole idea of eternal punishment is so unfair and horrible and out of proportion it doesn't make much sense.

Why damn some poor tortured soul, (who may have been abused and not had a good life) for eternity, because they couldn't take any more and ended it?

If there is a heaven, everyone should be able to get there, at some point.

Especially if someone believes in the Christian God.

Love your enemy, forgiveness being a virtue, not judging.......

Why is it, so many Christians think their God doesn't follow his own suggestions?

God ought to love and forgive even Satan, ultimately?

It's one of those conflicts in Christianity that doesn't make sense.

You are asked to display qualities the Christian God doesn't appear to have.......

Not by listening to some of his believers, anyway.

Jeremy's number 8 is pretty much the same as my number 2 and is easily the best scenario. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'll go with Jeremy's number 8.

No one deserves ' eternal' torture IMO.

Eternal is an awfully long time, when our lives are so short.

Plus people are not born equal.

Some people are born without empathy or are terribly damaged themselves.

The whole idea of eternal punishment is so unfair and horrible and out of proportion it doesn't make much sense.

Why damn some poor tortured soul, (who may have been abused and not had a good life) for eternity, because they couldn't take any more and ended it?

If there is a heaven, everyone should be able to get there, at some point.

Especially if someone believes in the Christian God.

Love your enemy, forgiveness being a virtue, not judging.......

Why is it, so many Christians think their God doesn't follow his own suggestions?

God ought to love and forgive even Satan, ultimately?

It's one of those conflicts in Christianity that doesn't make sense.

You are asked to display qualities the Christian God doesn't appear to have.......

Not by listening to some of his believers, anyway.

There was a theologian in Rome as far as I can recall who thought that Christians who had died because of the persecutions would get a grandstand view of the torments of there persecutors and of course there was Dante's inferno which was full of those sent there, as someone pointed out, by Dante.

CS Lewis did raise the point ''would those who had made peoples' life a misery in this life be allowed to carry it on in heaven''?

Khatru also missed out an Eastern orthodox perspective that heaven and hell are the same place, state, condition...the eternal presence of God.

[Walter]

this thread is a complete waste of time , I'm out.

[jeremyp]

number 8 is essentially my number 2.

No it isn't. Number 8 does not assume that God even shows himself. Entry into heaven might be completely automatic whether you believe in God or not. Number 2states that God shows himself in a completely convincing way such that everybody starts worshipping him.

[Jack Knave]

Anybody?

He's saying that just because there are lots that doesn't mean they are fundamentally different. Quantitatively there is only a fix number of options.

[Jack Knave]

You've also missed two scenarios.

7. There is a god, but there is no heaven or hell, everybody just dies and that is it.
8. Everybody goes to heaven.

9. God sits on It's hands and does bugger all.

[Jack Knave]

So what exactly is in us NOW & ISN'T there when we do what we call'dying' ??

Are we just like an Ever-Ready battery? How are we conscious?

Nick

On this board it's called a soul.

[Jack Knave]

I'll go with Jeremy's number 8.

No one deserves ' eternal' torture IMO.

Eternal is an awfully long time, when our lives are so short.

Plus people are not born equal.

Some people are born without empathy or are terribly damaged themselves.

The whole idea of eternal punishment is so unfair and horrible and out of proportion it doesn't make much sense.

Why damn some poor tortured soul, (who may have been abused and not had a good life) for eternity, because they couldn't take any more and ended it?

That's not the point. The Christian ethos is about what you do with what you have been given. You know, the servant that hid his money in the ground and got no interest from it, and gave back to his master what he had been given, and nothing else.

[wigginhall]

There was a theologian in Rome as far as I can recall who thought that Christians who had died because of the persecutions would get a grandstand view of the torments of there persecutors and of course there was Dante's inferno which was full of those sent there, as someone pointed out, by Dante.

CS Lewis did raise the point ''would those who had made peoples' life a misery in this life be allowed to carry it on in heaven''?

Khatru also missed out an Eastern orthodox perspective that heaven and hell are the same place, state, condition...the eternal presence of God.

Yes, this is an intriguing idea, that hell means being with God.   I don't know if all Orthodox hold with that, but some do.  It has an amusing side, that being with God, rather than without God, might make some people very miserable.   Probably. 

[Jack Knave]

Yes, this is an intriguing idea, that hell means being with God.   I don't know if all Orthodox hold with that, but some do.  It has an amusing side, that being with God, rather than without God, might make some people very miserable.   Probably.

Job wasn't too thrilled by it.

[Hope]

There you have it, the universe according to Christian doctrine is just one place up from the worst possible scenario.  It's a nasty world we've been born into - it could have been better but the god of the Bible has ensured that his choice is only just a step above the sort of universe that Satan would run if he was in charge.

Unfortunately, Khat, none of your scenarios actually match reality - so your calculations and therefore your conclusion are somewhat erroneous.

[Hope]

I'll go with Jeremy's number 8.

No one deserves ' eternal' torture IMO.

Yet, if 'everyone goes to heaven', won't those who have made it clear that they do not believe that there is a God or anything other than the purely natural, suffer 'eternal torture', by being forced to go to something they don't believe exists?

[NicholasMarks]

Yet, if 'everyone goes to heaven', won't those who have made it clear that they do not believe that there is a God or anything other than the purely natural, suffer 'eternal torture', by being forced to go to something they don't believe exists?

This is why it helps if you read your Holy Bible, Hope. You see...very few will be going to Heaven. Jesus showed us just how righteous we need to be to earn a place in Heaven and though there have been a few who might qualify the majority are working towards an eternal life here on planet Earth, in the flesh, where sickness and death will become a thing of the past. This is summed up in the words of Jesus...'The meek will inherit the Earth.'

The knowledge that will deliver this level of health is all wrapped up in Jesus' life, death, and resurrection and it all hinges upon a period of great tribulations when we are told, those who can't be bothered to bring alive righteous truth in their daily lives will certainly have to spend their eternal existence that they don't believe in, in an alternative, unpleasant sounding place...so both parties should be happy...because both groups are working flat out for their just desserts.