Rememberance day, hijacked by religion

[Walter]

I no longer attend services for this reason. I am watching on the telly now with the sound off . I find it offensive .
What do you think?

[Walter]

and as for our national anthem, I'm embarrassed to sing it .

[Brownie]

I find it offensive for other reasons and will not watch it, I can show my respect in other ways without having that inflicted on me.

However I accept that a lot of people who were personally involved in the two world wars had religious faith so that aspect doesn't bother me.

Perhaps it would be fair to have a bit of everything in the Festival to be more reflective of our current society;  I still wouldn't watch it but those who do might find it more palatable.

[Walter]

I'm interested to know what  these 'other reasons 'are Brownie.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I no longer attend services for this reason. I am watching on the telly now with the sound off . I find it offensive .
What do you think?

If the religious and empathic existential elements are removed then i'm afraid wars just look like Darwinian theatre on any level of profundity.

[Hope]

I no longer attend services for this reason. I am watching on the telly now with the sound off . I find it offensive .
What do you think?

How can something that was initiated by the church - in association with the state - have been hijacked by religion, Walter? 

[Walter]

How can something that was initiated by the church - in association with the state - have been hijacked by religion, Walter?

for me the overpowering influence  of religion in the remembrance day activities as seen all over the country, detracts immensely from the simple act of remembering, which is the whole point of it.
 As to who initiated it, any opportunity  will be used ,especially by the CofE to promote its self jumping on the desperation and sadness of millions of people.
What does worshiping god at a time like this have to do with remembering heroes like my uncle and dad.

[ad_orientem]

For me the overpowering influence  of religion in the remembrance day activities as seen all over the country, detracts immensely from the simple act of remembering, which is the whole point of it.

Didums!

[floo]

On Remembrance Sunday in my home island, a gun sounds to signal the start of the two minute silence. All car drivers were expected to stop and pull in, when I was a child, and respect the silence. Even though I wasn't born until 1950, the memories of WW2 were very much with us throughout my childhood with reminders all around us. As I have mentioned before, my home hosted 13 Germans and when they escaped before the Liberation, they left all their ammunition and war 'toys' behind. I had a real German helmet to wear!

Remembrance Sunday is important to me, we always have the TV on for the 2 minute silence and Remembrance Service.

 

[Brownie]

I'm interested to know what  these 'other reasons 'are Brownie.

Very private and personal, Walter.  I intended to say, "which I don't want to talk about", after "other reasons".   Should have been "other reason", singular, to be precise.  If I start talking too personal I'll feel embarrassed and embarrass others, apart from making the thread too much about me.

(Looking back, I note you said you no longer attend 'services' and I went off sideways talking about the Festival of Remembrance televised last night.)

Didums!

    Being pedantic, another D in the middle is correct.
(Btw, did you have a good birthday?  It was mentioned in your Faith Sharing thread to which you have not returned  )

[Anchorman]

I won't sing Lizzie's dirge for umpteen reasons - fortunately it plays no part in our simple service at the Warmemorial, which consuisted of a bugler, the traditiional "They shall grow not old", silence and the pipes playing "Floors o the Forest". A short benedictory prayer was the only 'religious' bit of the service. Anyone who wished could walk the thirty feet to the kirk and attend morning worship - and many did. Yes, Lizzie's dirge was played there for anyone to join in (after the benediction, so that it was not part of worship, nor should it be....I sat down at that point.)

[wigginhall]

I find it offensive for other reasons and will not watch it, I can show my respect in other ways without having that inflicted on me.

However I accept that a lot of people who were personally involved in the two world wars had religious faith so that aspect doesn't bother me.

Perhaps it would be fair to have a bit of everything in the Festival to be more reflective of our current society;  I still wouldn't watch it but those who do might find it more palatable.

My grandad told me he'd slaughter me if he ever caught me with a poppy, and yes, he did fight in WWI.   He also frothed at the mouth at the sight of a parson, and his description of them in the trenches is not really for a family programme like this.

[ad_orientem]

It was mentioned in your Faith Sharing thread to which you have not returned  )

It was alright. There was alcohol.

[Gordon]

These events, and especially the high-profile televised ones, tend to involve the establishment 'great and good', which bearing in mind they date from the last century will tend to involve religious institutions, the odious institution of the monarchy and sundry politicians. It tends to be formulaic, as do many traditions: I well remember the furore a while back when the late Michael Foot (then leader of the Labour Part) was deemed to be unduly scruffy on the day.

My advice is to simply tune out the tradition trivia: it is easily avoided, but join in the thoughtful reflection aspects on a personal basis and be glad that most of us in middle-age today (like me) never had to do what our older relatives had to do, and nor have we had the worry of our children or grandchildren being conscripted to fight - long may that situation continue.

[Walter]

I won't sing Lizzie's dirge for umpteen reasons - fortunately it plays no part in our simple service at the Warmemorial, which consuisted of a bugler, the traditiional "They shall grow not old", silence and the pipes playing "Floors o the Forest". A short benedictory prayer was the only 'religious' bit of the service. Anyone who wished could walk the thirty feet to the kirk and attend morning worship - and many did. Yes, Lizzie's dirge was played there for anyone to join in (after the benediction, so that it was not part of worship, nor should it be....I sat down at that point.)

very dignified by the sound of it.

[Walter]

These events, and especially the high-profile televised ones, tend to involve the establishment 'great and good', which bearing in mind they date from the last century will tend to involve religious institutions, the odious institution of the monarchy and sundry politicians. It tends to be formulaic, as do many traditions: I well remember the furore a while back when the late Michael Foot (then leader of the Labour Part) was deemed to be unduly scruffy on the day.

My advice is to simply tune out the tradition trivia: it is easily avoided, but join in the thoughtful reflection aspects on a personal basis and be glad that most of us in middle-age today (like me) never had to do what our older relatives had to do, and nor have we had the worry of our children or grandchildren being conscripted to fight - long may that situation continue.

well said Gordon.

[Hope]

These events, and especially the high-profile televised ones, tend to involve the establishment 'great and good', which bearing in mind they date from the last century will tend to involve religious institutions, the odious institution of the monarchy and sundry politicians. It tends to be formulaic, as do many traditions: I well remember the furore a while back when the late Michael Foot (then leader of the Labour Part) was deemed to be unduly scruffy on the day.

My advice is to simply tune out the tradition trivia: it is easily avoided, but join in the thoughtful reflection aspects on a personal basis and be glad that most of us in middle-age today (like me) never had to do what our older relatives had to do, and nor have we had the worry of our children or grandchildren being conscripted to fight - long may that situation continue.

Whilst I disagree with Gordon on a number of issues, this seems eminently sensible advice. 

[Hope]

for me the overpowering influence  of religion in the remembrance day activities as seen all over the country, detracts immensely from the simple act of remembering, which is the whole point of it.

I've been to a number of such ceremonies, including 2 or 3 nominally secular ones.  For me, these 2 or 3 seemed signally short of hope - something that all the religious ones (not all Christian, by the way) seemed to have in good, but not excessive measure.

As to who initiated it, any opportunity  will be used ,especially by the CofE to promote its self jumping on the desperation and sadness of millions of people.

Whilst I accept that the Great War, in particular, had a massive impact on people's faith, both individually and corporately, it was a way in which those who had a faith were able to remember those who died - some with a faith, some without.  Whilst many of the war poets wrote material that questioned God's purposes in such horror, the system was established in a time where faith was still a major part of society.  Whilst it may not be so today, there are still many occasions when Service chaplains able to help members of their regiment/flight/ship's crew cope with tragedy and total lack of understanding of why X or Y has occurred.  I know of several servicemen and women who have said to me thaty'd rather deal with a chaplain that with a psychiatrist, as a chaplain is more grounded, human and/or caring.

What does worshipping god at a time like this have to do with remembering heroes like my uncle and dad.

I think you will find that the aspect of worship most prevalent in such events is that of asking for wisdom, for an ability to care for the damaged - in whatever form that takes - and acknowledging that - more often than not, such wars (and the attendant deaths and injuries) are - ultimately futile.  They rarely solve the problems they were started to solve.

[Hope]

My grandad told me he'd slaughter me if he ever caught me with a poppy, and yes, he did fight in WWI.   He also frothed at the mouth at the sight of a parson, and his description of them in the trenches is not really for a family programme like this.

On the other hand, my grandfather, who also fought in the Great War, told me that the survival of many of his comrades was down to the level-headedness of the chaplains who often, whilst not disobeying official orders, helped the folk in the trenches to think about orders in a way that gave them the greatest chances of survival.

No doubt there were bad eggs in every 'basket' of people and roles.  Just because my grandfather had a 'good' experience and yours didn't doesn't mean that either characterisation is the only/'true' one.

[Brownie]

These events, and especially the high-profile televised ones, tend to involve the establishment 'great and good', which bearing in mind they date from the last century will tend to involve religious institutions, the odious institution of the monarchy and sundry politicians. It tends to be formulaic, as do many traditions: I well remember the furore a while back when the late Michael Foot (then leader of the Labour Part) was deemed to be unduly scruffy on the day.

My advice is to simply tune out the tradition trivia: it is easily avoided, but join in the thoughtful reflection aspects on a personal basis and be glad that most of us in middle-age today (like me) never had to do what our older relatives had to do, and nor have we had the worry of our children or grandchildren being conscripted to fight - long may that situation continue.

Excellent, Gordon and amen your last phrase, "Long may that situation continue".

I well remember the Michael Foot business, couldn't understand what people were on about.  He looked OK to me.

[Walter]

Excellent, Gordon and amen your last phrase, "Long may that situation continue".

I well remember the Michael Foot business, couldn't understand what people were on about.  He looked OK to me.

Do you remember his donkey jacket, that kicked up a fuss too. They were everyday wear where I come from except NCB was written on the back . happy memories

[Brownie]

The donkey jacket was what I remembered.  Nice and warm.

[Harrowby Hall]

What I object to is solemnification of two pieces of music which have nothing to do with solemnity, warfare, militarism, nationalism or whatever.

The trio section from Holst's "Jupiter" represents, perhaps, a happy, elderly man, sitting in a pub inglenook enjoying a pint of ale - not the dirge-like religiosity of vowing to "thee my country" (It was even more mangled for the bloody rugby world cup.)

Elgar's "Nimrod" is an expression of friendship. It was written, as a part of his Enigma Variations, as a tribute to his publisher and closest musical friend, August Jaeger. Its title is a piece of linguistic fun - "a mighty hunter". (Although Jaeger died in 1909 his family stayed in England and changed their name to Hunter.) It gets played so slowly that it is almost falling apart by military bands at the Cenotaph.

[Brownie]

HH: It gets played so slowly that it is almost falling apart by military bands at the Cenotaph.


Imagine how they would play, "Make me a channel of your peace".

[Walter]

HH: It gets played so slowly that it is almost falling apart by military bands at the Cenotaph.


Imagine how they would play, "Make me a channel of your peace".

didn't AC DC do a cover of that one?