Cryonics

[floo]

Wiki says,  cryogenics is the study of the production and behaviour of materials at very low temperatures.

[SusanDoris]

If it eased her final days, it did some good.

I disagree. for her, her mother and whoever else was involved to have their fears eased is not a good enough reason to perpetrate, and in this case make world-wide news, a lie that there is a possibility of some life following death.

If scientists can come up with some genuine, useful evidence that such freezing and resuscitating of human bodies, especially if this
 is on the basis of what I think is most likely to be a selfilsh  whim of a patient rather than on recommendation by doctors and researchers, then I might have to say I am wrong, but in the meantime I think I'll stick with a natural revulsion for such a thing.

On a slightly similar, but unconnected note, there is a doctor in this country, I heard on radio yesterday, who says he is ready and able to do a head transplant which although evoking somewhat squeamish feelings, is a positive move to improve someone's life?

[Nearly Sane]

I disagree. for her, her mother and whoever else was involved to have their fears eased is not a good enough reason to perpetrate, and in this case make world-wide news, a lie that there is a possibility of some life following death.

If scientists can come up with some genuine, useful evidence that such freezing and resuscitating of human bodies, especially if this
 is on the basis of what I think is most likely to be a selfilsh the whim of a patient rather than on recommendation by doctors and researchers, then I might have to say I am wrong, but in the meantime I think I'll stick with a natural revulsion for such a thing.

On a slightly similar, but unconnected note, there is a doctor in this country, I heard on radio yesterday, who says he is ready and able to do a head transplant which although evoking somewhat squeamish feelings, is a positive move to improve someone's life?

It's not a lie. It's highly unlikely but that doesn't make it a lie. I find your attitude to someone who was dying at the age of 14 completely lacking in empathy.

[Sriram]

Actually both terms are perfectly acceptable in this context. Cryogenics however has another, more scientifically based meaning.

Yeah you're right. In fact, Cryonics is more correct in this context as it deals with preservation of human bodies. Cryogenics is more generally about  low temperatures. Sorry!

[SusanDoris]

It's not a lie. It's highly unlikely but that doesn't make it a lie. I find your attitude to someone who was dying at the age of 14 completely lacking in empathy.

Empathy does not require agreement.

[Nearly Sane]

Empathy does not require agreement.

indeed not, but talking about a 14 year old dying as having a selfish whim isn't just disagreement.

[SusanDoris]

indeed not, but talking about a 14 year old dying as having a selfish whim isn't just disagreement.

You will, however note that my use of the phrase 'selfish whim' were in a separate paragraph which itself was deliberately couched in general terms.

[Nearly Sane]

You will, however note that my use of the phrase 'selfish whim' were in a separate paragraph which itself was deliberately couched in general terms.

and? You state in that paragraph that 'especially if this
 is on the basis of what I think is most likely to be a selfilsh the whim of a patient '. This surely applies to this case as well as your opinion?

[SusanDoris]

and? You state in that paragraph that 'especially if this
 is on the basis of what I think is most likely to be a selfilsh the whim of a patient '. This surely applies to this case as well as your opinion?

That is your interpretation. I could have written two separate posts , drawn a double line between paragraphs, or chosen more specific words, but I prefer to be brief.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I disagree. for her, her mother and whoever else was involved to have their fears eased is not a good enough reason to perpetrate, and in this case make world-wide news, a lie that there is a possibility of some life following death.

If scientists can come up with some genuine, useful evidence that such freezing and resuscitating of human bodies, especially if this
 is on the basis of what I think is most likely to be a selfilsh  whim of a patient rather than on recommendation by doctors and researchers, then I might have to say I am wrong, but in the meantime I think I'll stick with a natural revulsion for such a thing.

There is the possibility of some life after death, which is why people donate their organs to those in need. What is in question here is not life as such, but consciousness. What concerns me  is your disregard for the feelings of a terminally ill teenager. 

[SusanDoris]

There is the possibility of some life after death, which is why people donate their organs to those in need. What is in question here is not life as such, but consciousness. What concerns me  is your disregard for the feelings of a terminally ill teenager.

Your assumption of my 'disregard for the feelings of a teenager', as was NS's, is misplaced.

Organs being used after death and cryonics are quite different questions. If anyone can use any bits of me when I die, I think that would be a very good idea. I think mine will be too old and worn out though.

[ippy]

Your assumption of my 'disregard for the feelings of a teenager', as was NS's, is misplaced.

Organs being used after death and cryonics are quite different questions. If anyone can use any bits of me when I die, I think that would be a very good idea. I think mine will be too old and worn out though.

Susan, I like you am not bothered by my parting this world long as it's not to early, even then, lot of people like H W D do bother and need some kind of mental comfort blanket; let em have it they're welcome. 

Yes I don't think it's a good thing to make up the stories about some other place that can't be known about by anyone, I prefer the odds on truth that when you're dead it's game over, especially when there's absolutely no evidence to the contrary.

And then again so many people are taken in wholesale with this stuff and you'll never shake them from it and I have to admit it would be a kindness to comfort any terminal fellow human being with more or less any comforting words in those circumstances, even though I wouldn't want any of this kind of religious nonsense for myself, other than the kindness.

It's the roots of this religious canker that we should be concentrating on and then these side effects would be sliding away.

ippy

S D, did you notice that I don't like religions that much?

[jeremyp]

indeed not, but talking about a 14 year old dying as having a selfish whim isn't just disagreement.

I think this 14 year old girl and her parents have been scammed. Obviously it is their right to spend £37,000 in any way they wish, but I think cryogenics companies offer false hope.

There's also some concern that that the freezing procedure was badly handled in this case.

[floo]

It appears the body of this tragic girl hasn't been handled well by the cryonics company. Even if it was possible to bring frozen people back to life in the future, her body may have deteriorated too badly to have any chance of revival!

[Brownie]

That's a very sad business and I think, alongside jeremyp, that her family have been scammed.

 Btw, I don't believe for one minute that SuanD did not empathise with a 14 year old girl who was terminally ill, the issue is far wider than that. 

I empathise with her, poor little thing, as well as wondering how the idea of cryonics was so frmly planted in the mind of one so young;  everyone's heard of cryonics but how many of us have seriously cconsidered it, with all of its implications?   However I do not believe any one of us can judge fairly, we're not 14 years old and dying.

All we can do is hope such a case is not brought before the courts again.

[Nearly Sane]

That's a very sad business and I think, alongside jeremyp, that her family have been scammed.

 Btw, I don't believe for one minute that SuanD did not empathise with a 14 year old girl who was terminally ill, the issue is far wider than that. 

I empathise with her, poor little thing, as well as wondering how the idea of cryonics was so frmly planted in the mind of one so young;  everyone's heard of cryonics but how many of us have seriously cconsidered it, with all of its implications?   However I do not believe any one of us can judge fairly, we're not 14 years old and dying.

All we can do is hope such a case is not brought before the courts again.

It's unlikely that there will be many more cases like this. In a sense, I think that's why it is precisely not wider than the individual case. It's dependent on a particular set of circumstances. That most of us here would not consider it is not really useful to the specifics. Indeed were a relative of mine want this, I would argue against it with them before their death, but if it was what they wanted when they died, I help it happen.

I don't think I would judge anyone wanting this as doing it on a selfish whim, and I think doing that is precisely a lack of empathy.

[SusanDoris]

Susan, I like you am not bothered by my parting this world long as it's not to early, even then, lot of people like H W D do bother and need some kind of mental comfort blanket; let em have it they're welcome. 

Yes I don't think it's a good thing to make up the stories about some other place that can't be known about by anyone, I prefer the odds on truth that when you're dead it's game over, especially when there's absolutely no evidence to the contrary.

And then again so many people are taken in wholesale with this stuff and you'll never shake them from it and I have to admit it would be a kindness to comfort any terminal fellow human being with more or less any comforting words in those circumstances, even though I wouldn't want any of this kind of religious nonsense for myself, other than the kindness.

It's the roots of this religious canker that we should be concentrating on and then these side effects would be sliding away.
.     
ippy

I didn't turn the radio off after the World at One so listened to a programme about the Sunday Assembly; presented by a member of the CofE but in a rational sort of way. I don't know that I would say it's a must listen to, but it was quite interesting

S D, did you notice that I don't like religions that much?

Yes I did!
[/quote]

[SusanDoris]

Brownie #64

Well said.

[ippy]

I didn't turn the radio off after the World at One so listened to a programme about the Sunday Assembly; presented by a member of the CofE but in a rational sort of way. I don't know that I would say it's a must listen to, but it was quite interesting Yes I did!

Yes Susan I heard the same program, they droped the godless and subtituted secular?

Why can't the godless have something of their own of this kind, why not?

I noted the BBC's ever present never let the non-religious have an unescourted presence on air policy is still in force.

ippy

[Hope]

... even then, lot of people like H W D do bother and need some kind of mental comfort blanket; let em have it they're welcome.

It sounds more like you need the mental comfort blanket, ippy; a blanket of nothingness.  Whilst I think I could possibly name a couple of religious people for whom their faith is little more than a comfort blanket, the vast majority of religious people I know tend to say that, for them, the 'comfort blanket' would be regressing to your stance, whereby they wouldn't be challenged - by other people, by situations that appear in the news on a daily basis, and on their actions and attitudes.

Yes I don't think it's a good thing to make up the stories about some other place that can't be known about by anyone, I prefer the odds on truth that when you're dead it's game over, especially when there's absolutely no evidence to the contrary.

Yet, you do exactly that by assuming - with absolutely no evidence - that there is nothing after one's death.  I do like the reference to an 'odds-on truth' that - as mentioned above - has absolutely no evidential support.

And then again so many people are taken in wholesale with this stuff and you'll never shake them from it and I have to admit it would be a kindness to comfort any terminal fellow human being with more or less any comforting words in those circumstances, even though I wouldn't want any of this kind of religious nonsense for myself, other than the kindness.

It's the roots of this religious canker that we should be concentrating on and then these side effects would be sliding away.

I suspect that several positive side effects, such as the high level of voluntary action on social issues, would be missed very soon.  It seems that you believe that voluntary work in these extremely important areas is a canker.

[ippy]

It sounds more like you need the mental comfort blanket, ippy; a blanket of nothingness.  Whilst I think I could possibly name a couple of religious people for whom their faith is little more than a comfort blanket, the vast majority of religious people I know tend to say that, for them, the 'comfort blanket' would be regressing to your stance, whereby they wouldn't be challenged - by other people, by situations that appear in the news on a daily basis, and on their actions and attitudes.
Yet, you do exactly that by assuming - with absolutely no evidence - that there is nothing after one's death.  I do like the reference to an 'odds-on truth' that - as mentioned above - has absolutely no evidential support.
I suspect that several positive side effects, such as the high level of voluntary action on social issues, would be missed very soon.  It seems that you believe that voluntary work in these extremely important areas is a canker.

Hope, I note you're still giving out N P F at full bore again, why can't you see it Hope?

You can't even get your science right?

ippy