Education and aspirations

[SusanDoris]

On the Saturday phone-in following the repeat of Any Questions there were many sensible comments of course, but the thing I always feel is missing from such programmes is an acknowledgement of the importance of, the need for and respect for the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc. There was one caller who was given a few seconds but perhaps he was the only one who picked up the phone! 

Any thoughts on this, or is it just self-evident?

[Nearly Sane]

Sorry SusanDoris but I think you need to give us a bit more context of what the discussion covered.

[SusanDoris]

sorry - yes, of course, I'm assuming telepathy! There was a question about how the education system should and could help children, e.g. children who have free school meals, to have more of a chance of getting to Oxbridge, as if all children should aspire to careers in law, teaching, etc etc. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

On the Saturday phone-in following the repeat of Any Questions there were many sensible comments of course, but the thing I always feel is missing from such programmes is an acknowledgement of the importance of, the need for and respect for the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc. There was one caller who was given a few seconds but perhaps he was the only one who picked up the phone! 

Any thoughts on this, or is it just self-evident?

A very good point Susan and thank you for making it.
I do think though that the problem private sector workers as a whole have at the moment is with public servants yes there was support for junior doctors as long as
they didn't have to pay for it. In education Gove preached that schools should remain open for several more hours but on the same money and their workloads went up to the point where no one wants to do the job or at least only until something better turns up.
More people banged up yes but with less prison officers and I suppose we could go on.

So yes there is a sniffy private sector plus private sector workers so I would expect the expectation of more from utility workers for less...and certainly having lived for decades with no interruption in water supply I have experienced unannounced water cuts twice in the past eighteen months...it hits you straight away and you then immediately appretiate the job they do.

[SusanDoris]

Agreed. Thank you for posting.

[ProfessorDavey]

sorry - yes, of course, I'm assuming telepathy! There was a question about how the education system should and could help children, e.g. children who have free school meals, to have more of a chance of getting to Oxbridge, as if all children should aspire to careers in law, teaching, etc etc.

I'm still not entirely sure what you mean, but I will give a stab at what I think you mean.

If I am getting you right you are challenging the notion that kids from poor backgrounds should aspire to be middle class - e.g. lawyers, teachers etc. That should not feel to compelled to follow the perceived aspirational drive.

Well that's all very well, but it is easy to see the importance of being able choose one's own path, be it lawyer, teacher, potter, poet, chocolate maker if all those paths are open and none have the downside of being unable to make ends meet and to create a better life for your family and your children.

But that is really the prerogative of those already firmly ensconced in the middle classes, where those options are all open if you have money behind you. You can risk trying your hand as a poet, potter or chocolate maker, safe in the knowledge that were you to fail you can fall back on your education and inheritance. For most that isn't the case and the middle class privilege of being an aspirational potter isn't available as there is the rent to pay, the debts to pay off, the children's future to consider.

So the middle classes who are already the 'haves' may look down on those from poorer background who aspire to their fundamental freedom - the freedom of relative wealth - and sneer. But they shouldn't, because aspiration is all about making life that bit better and easier for your kids, who in turn will do so for their kids etc. So we should celebrate people from poor backgrounds who aspire to (or support their kids) to get a good education, to become a lawyer or a doctor, or a teacher because that is all about providing opportunities and security to the next generation that they didn't have themselves. And a darned good thing that is too.

And I speak at a product of classic generational aspiration - my grandfather worked in a market garden (the poor relation of a farm hand), my parents were a docker and a nurse - I was the part of the first generation of my family to go to university and became a classic middle class professional (an academic) - my kids take for granted that they will go to university and go into a professional career, the question is which university. Each generation have attained more than the last and through hard work created opportunities for their children unknown to themselves.

Now you may be scratching you head at the reference to a chocolate maker - well it was deliberate. A few years ago there was a tv series about a man who set up a business as chocolate maker, risking all on a small business venture and traveling the world to find obscure recipes involving chocolate - classic following your dreams stuff, none of the boring tedium and safety of being a lawyer or a teacher for him. But here is the catch - when you checked his background he went to Eton and had substantial inherited wealth - there was no risk to him at all. His background meant he could 'play' at being a chocolate maker (or a poet, or a potter) safe in the knowledge that if everything went pear shaped he was financially secure and could fall back in his inherited wealth, and (crucially) his connections. Ever wondered how you can get a whole tv series effectively promoting your small chocolate business - well it helps if you went to the right school and have plenty of contacts high up in the media.

So let's not sneer at aspirational kids from poor backgrounds who aspire to being a teacher or a lawyer, or a doctor when they've never known someone in their family, or from their neighbourhood, achieve this. And who will commit to education to achieve their aspiration. Nope, lets celebrate them.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm still not entirely sure what you mean, but I will give a stab at what I think you mean.

If I am getting you right you are challenging the notion that kids from poor backgrounds should aspire to be middle class - e.g. lawyers, teachers etc. That should not feel to compelled to follow the perceived aspirational drive.

Well that's all very well, but it is easy to see the importance of being able choose one's own path, be it lawyer, teacher, potter, poet, chocolate maker if all those paths are open and none have the downside of being unable to make ends meet and to create a better life for your family and your children.

But that is really the prerogative of those already firmly ensconced in the middle classes, where those options are all open if you have money behind you. You can risk trying your hand as a poet, potter or chocolate maker, safe in the knowledge that were you to fail you can fall back on your education and inheritance. For most that isn't the case and the middle class privilege of being an aspirational potter isn't available as there is the rent to pay, the debts to pay off, the children's future to consider.

So the middle classes who are already the 'haves' may look down on those from poorer background who aspire to their fundamental freedom - the freedom of relative wealth - and sneer. But they shouldn't, because aspiration is all about making life that bit better and easier for your kids, who in turn will do so for their kids etc. So we should celebrate people from poor backgrounds who aspire to (or support their kids) to get a good education, to become a lawyer or a doctor, or a teacher because that is all about providing opportunities and security to the next generation that they didn't have themselves. And a darned good thing that is too.

And I speak at a product of classic generational aspiration - my grandfather worked in a market garden (the poor relation of a farm hand), my parents were a docker and a nurse - I was the part of the first generation of my family to go to university and became a classic middle class professional (an academic) - my kids take for granted that they will go to university and go into a professional career, the question is which university. Each generation have attained more than the last and through hard work created opportunities for their children unknown to themselves.

Now you may be scratching you head at the reference to a chocolate maker - well it was deliberate. A few years ago there was a tv series about a man who set up a business as chocolate maker, risking all on a small business venture and traveling the world to find obscure recipes involving chocolate - classic following your dreams stuff, none of the boring tedium and safety of being a lawyer or a teacher for him. But here is the catch - when you checked his background he went to Eton and had substantial inherited wealth - there was no risk to him at all. His background meant he could 'play' at being a chocolate maker (or a poet, or a potter) safe in the knowledge that if everything went pear shaped he was financially secure and could fall back in his inherited wealth, and (crucially) his connections. Ever wondered how you can get a whole tv series effectively promoting your small chocolate business - well it helps if you went to the right school and have plenty of contacts high up in the media.

So let's not sneer at aspirational kids from poor backgrounds who aspire to being a teacher or a lawyer, or a doctor when they've never known someone in their family, or from their neighbourhood, achieve this. And who will commit to education to achieve their aspiration. Nope, lets celebrate them.

A post answering the question should the middle class look down on utility workers which ends up as paeon to the middle class* and fails to mention utility workers!

* also a love letter to a bleak Darwinianism.

[ProfessorDavey]

A post answering the question should the middle class look down on utility workers which ends up as paeon to the middle class* and fails to mention utility workers!

What on earth are you on about - who mentioned 'utility workers' - you not me. Given that there was no mention of 'utility workers' (whatever they may be) until your post, why should I, posting before you, be mentioning them.

And to actually answer your question - no, this wasn't a paeon to the middle class, but a recognition of the importance of aspiring that your kids have better opportunities that yourselves. Indeed there was no paeon to the middle class as I was actually critical of middle class patronising those with less opportunity with a kind of victorian romanticism of the struggles of the poor.

* also a love letter to a bleak Darwinianism.

What are you on about - there is nothing here about Darwinsim - indeed Darwinism would be anti aspirational on the basis that the 'survival of the fittest' aims to keep the rich rich and the poor poor. But actually aspiration and education has been phenomenal at lifting millions out of poverty and toward better lives across the world - and it isn't a zero sum game.

[Walter]

A post answering the question should the middle class look down on utility workers which ends up as paeon to the middle class* and fails to mention utility workers!

* also a love letter to a bleak Darwinianism.

eh ?

[ProfessorDavey]

eh ?

My point exactly - although in true academic fashion I felt the need to argue the point rather than to use a single word to point out how pointless Spoof-boy's post was.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What on earth are you on about - who mentioned 'utility workers' - you not me. Given that there was no mention of 'utility workers' (whatever they may be) until your post, why should I, posting before you, be mentioning them.

Well let's remind ourselves of the opening post shall we....

''On the Saturday phone-in following the repeat of Any Questions there were many sensible comments of course, but the thing I always feel is missing from such programmes is an acknowledgement of the importance of, the need for and respect for the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc. There was one caller who was given a few seconds but perhaps he was the only one who picked up the phone!''

Your case gets even worse if you underline your blindness to this line ''the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc.''. FYI the people doing that are known as utility workers.

 A whole other class of people brought to your attention.

[Walter]

again , It begins with 'C'.

[ProfessorDavey]

Well let's remind ourselves of the opening post shall we....

''On the Saturday phone-in following the repeat of Any Questions there were many sensible comments of course, but the thing I always feel is missing from such programmes is an acknowledgement of the importance of, the need for and respect for the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc. There was one caller who was given a few seconds but perhaps he was the only one who picked up the phone!''

Your case gets even worse if you underline your blindness to this line ''the work which must be done if those who follow white collar jobs can have heat, light, water, etc.''. FYI the people doing that are known as utility workers.

And where is the mention of 'utility worker' (whatever that is), apart from by you. And for your information, just in case you don't understand, many of the old-style blue collar jobs in energy, water etc have long gone to automation - you are much more likely to encounter a highly trained graduate, professional engineer in a modern power station that a coal stoker.

A whole other class of people brought to your attention.

What like my parents?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And where is the mention of 'utility worker' (whatever that is), apart from by you. And for your information, just in case you don't understand, many of the old-style blue collar jobs in energy, water etc have long gone to automation - you are much more likely to encounter a highly trained graduate, professional engineer in a modern power station that a coal stoker.
What like my parents?

If there had been a truly tripartite education system and less snobbery we could be more like Germany now.

[Walter]

and my parents too Prof.

[SusanDoris]

Please forgive any typos.

I'm still not entirely sure what you mean, but I will give a stab at what I think you mean.

If I am getting you right you are challenging the notion that kids from poor backgrounds should aspire to be middle class - e.g. lawyers, teachers etc.

No, in a perfect world all children could aspire to anything they wanted, but it is not a perfect world, nor will it ever be.

That should not feel to compelled to follow the perceived aspirational drive.

More apologies for not making the OP longer as I certainly did not mean that all children should not have the chance to be able to pursue whatever goals they choose and should be supported in doing so. But whenever a discussion like this comes up, there is often the implication that if children do not aspire to academic-type jobs, they are somehow not  thinking clearly or correctly.
! :

Well that's all very well, but it is easy to see the importance of being able choose one's own path, be it lawyer, teacher, potter, poetchocolate maker if all those paths are open and none have the downside of being unable to make ends meet and to create a better life for your family and your children.

But that is really the prerogative of those already firmly ensconced in the middle classes, where those options are all open if you have money behind you. You can risk trying your hand as a poet, potter or chocolate maker, safe in the knowledge that were you to fail you can fall back on your education and inheritance. For most that isn't the case and the middle class privilege of being an aspirational potter isn't available as there is the rent to pay, the debts to pay off, the children's future to consider.

So the middle classes who are already the 'haves' may look down on those from poorer background who aspire to their fundamental freedom - the freedom of relative wealth - and sneer. But they shouldn't, because aspiration is all about making life that bit better and easier for your kids, who in turn will do so for their kids etc. So we should celebrate people from poor backgrounds who aspire to (or support their kids) to get a good education, to become a lawyer or a doctor, or a teacher because that is all about providing opportunities and security to the next generation that they didn't have themselves. And a darned good thing that is too.

And I speak at a product of classic generational aspiration - my grandfather worked in a market garden (the poor relation of a farm hand), my parents were a docker and a nurse - I was the part of the first generation of my family to go to university and became a classic middle class professional (an academic) - my kids take for granted that they will go to university and go into a professional career, the question is which university. Each generation have attained more than the last and through hard work created opportunities for their children unknown to themselves.

Now you may be scratching you head at the reference to a chocolate maker - well it was deliberate. A few years ago there was a tv series about a man who set up a business as chocolate maker, risking all on a small business venture and traveling the world to find obscure recipes involving chocolate - classic following your dreams stuff, none of the boring tedium and safety of being a lawyer or a teacher for him. But here is the catch - when you checked his background he went to Eton and had substantial inherited wealth - there was no risk to him at all. His background meant he could 'play' at being a chocolate maker (or a poet, or a potter) safe in the knowledge that if everything went pear shaped he was financially secure and could fall back in his inherited wealth, and (crucially) his connections. Ever wondered how you can get a whole tv series effectively promoting your small chocolate business - well it helps if you went to the right school and have plenty of contacts high up in the media.

So let's not sneer at aspirational kids from poor backgrounds who aspire to being a teacher or a lawyer, or a doctor when they've never known someone in their family, or from their neighbourhood, achieve this. And who will commit to education to achieve their aspiration. Nope, lets celebrate them.

Now, I don't usually leave the whole of a long post in a quote when responding because I just can't hold it all in my head, but I'm leaving it this time because you have, I think, done exactly what I was talking about. Yes, of course parents want life to be better for their children, but if all their children become the more comfortably-off middle class, or whatever one wants to call them, then that means you still need parents across the board to value all types of work and   encourage their children to do so too, and to demonstrate by their own attitude to jobs that they are all of value since all are required, and none is less important than any other. When I was a child, my parents said, 'Be whatever you like, but whatever it is, do your best at it.' When I came home from living abroad, with no money and two children, I looked in the local paper for a job, not something that I thought was suitable for me, or my abilities and skills, but one that paid money, however small an amount. Okay, I knew that I would be able to do something to earn more , but if that had not come about, I would have worked at whatever jobs were going.

Both my sons work in reasonably high-paid jobs, and my granddaughters have jobs that are well paid for their ages. All of us rely on those with practical, technical skills, who enable us to live without having to survive unaded.
 I'll just end by saying, what is a 'better life' anyway? And listening through this, I note you have used the word 'sneer' a couple of times. One thing I can say with absolute truth is that I do not 'sneer' at anyone. My ex did that to me until I had the strength to get away and I do not think I am 'better' or 'worse' than anyone else. equal is a word that is so important.

[ekim]

I think it is time that we should dispense with the idea of identifying people as belonging to a class which implies a status of superiority and inferiority.  It just emphasises snobbery rather than value to the community.  For all their upper class status, I doubt whether there is any member of the royal family with the skills to renovate the gas and electrical systems in Buckingham Palace.  I don't see any reason why a society can't value all its members without the need to classify them as upper or lower.  It reminds me of a joke about the members of the human body vying for leadership, which I have put in the 'jokes' topic to avoid derailment of this one.

[SusanDoris]

And where is the mention of 'utility worker' (whatever that is), apart from by you. And for your information, just in case you don't understand, many of the old-style blue collar jobs in energy, water etc have long gone to automation - you are much more likely to encounter a highly trained graduate, professional engineer in a modern power station that a coal stoker.

But all the actual equipment they are using has been manufactured by people who might not be able to understand all the algorithms or whatever they're called, but know how to follow instructions to make the machines, using, of course, the machines made by others, who made the moulds from steel or something made to size ... all of them buying their food from markets etc...
What like my parents?

[ProfessorDavey]

If there had been a truly tripartite education system and less snobbery we could be more like Germany now.

Possibly true - but we'd need to understand that an engineer is a highly qualified graduate and not someone who fixes your washing machine.

[SusanDoris]

Possibly true - but we'd need to understand that an engineer is a highly qualified graduate and not someone who fixes your washing machine.

The latter is an engineer too, isn't he? !

[ProfessorDavey]

The latter is an engineer too, isn't he? !

Not in virtually any country but the UK. Engineering is a profession, just like Law or Medicine. In most countries you can only call yourself an Engineer if you are fully qualified - which means a degree and postgraduate experience to become recognised and receive chartered status from the professional Engineering body. Similar to a lawyer and a doctor. So in Germany the person who fixes your washing machine would be a repair technician, never an Engineering - but in the UK we seem to confuse the two. This is the equivalent of allowing a medical secretary to call themselves a doctor, or a dental assistant to call themselves a dentist.

[floo]

Not in virtually any country but the UK. Engineering is a profession, just like Law or Medicine. In most countries you can only call yourself an Engineer if you are fully qualified - which means a degree and postgraduate experience to become recognised and receive chartered status from the professional Engineering body. Similar to a lawyer and a doctor. So in Germany the person who fixes your washing machine would be a repair technician, never an Engineering - but in the UK we seem to confuse the two. This is the equivalent of allowing a medical secretary to call themselves a doctor, or a dental assistant to call themselves a dentist.

I agree Engineering is definitely a profession and you have to be well qualified  to do it. One of my sons-in-law is an electronics engineer, he has a degree and frequently gets top up qualifications. He has had several high powered jobs over the years, his present job is particularly so.

[Harrowby Hall]

Not in virtually any country but the UK. Engineering is a profession, just like Law or Medicine. In most countries you can only call yourself an Engineer if you are fully qualified - which means a degree and postgraduate experience to become recognised and receive chartered status from the professional Engineering body. Similar to a lawyer and a doctor. So in Germany the person who fixes your washing machine would be a repair technician, never an Engineering - but in the UK we seem to confuse the two. This is the equivalent of allowing a medical secretary to call themselves a doctor, or a dental assistant to call themselves a dentist.

Indeed. And the person who is polite when he repairs your washing machine is not a civil engineer.

[ProfessorDavey]

Indeed. And the person who is polite when he repairs your washing machine is not a civil engineer.

[Walter]

Possibly true - but we'd need to understand that an engineer is a highly qualified graduate and not someone who fixes your washing machine.

well bloody said Prof
however he/she probably could fix your washing machine.