Education and aspirations

[Harrowby Hall]

If I can broaden this discussion a little:

I half listened to the Any Questions? repeat on Saturday. The fact that Nigel Farage was on the panel had lessened its potential interest for me. But it was a part of Farage's response to the question on education which attracted my attention. He said something like ... one of the problems of universities today are that they are producing too many graduates with "-ologies" rather than something useful.

Nigel Farage has never been to university. He has no direct experience of higher education. In my judgement, this is an additional weakness in his fitness to pontificate on the state of Britain today. I worked for a quarter of a century in HE and the institution which employed me progressed from college of technology, through being a constituent of larger, regional college, split into separate FE and HE instititions and the HE institution became a university from which I eventually retired.

Now, I do admit to having an -ology, psychology. I worked in a Business School where I was involved in subject areas such as research methods in business, quantitative methods, business communication and consumer behaviour. Frequently, students - eager to get to work doing something which they perceived as being a "hands-on" practical activity - would ask "Why are we doing this? We came here to learn (for example) marketing not this stuff."

My answer was always that it would be their employer's job to train them in their various work activities. What we were doing was to train them in skills which they would need when they had risen from operational roles to management and strategic roles. We were helping them to develop skills in analysis and evaluation, giving them the opportunity to be creative and to persuade and convince others of their conclusions and proposals.

This is the real educational purpose of all university programmes. For most students, the subject area they study is there to aid in their own development, it is a context within which higher level, general skills can develop. Some will stay in their subject areas and conduct research and expand understanding of that subject. Some, like medical students will become practitioners in the subjects they have studied. Most, however, will work in areas unconnected with the subject they have studied but their general higher level skills will be the key to their future progress and success.

Farage missed the point.

[Walter]

The latter is an engineer too, isn't he? !

I think its mainly due to TV advertising bigging up their clients such as in the  British gas advert. it angers me every time and confuses the public . it should be STOPPED

[Walter]

HH I think you have too pal.

[SusanDoris]

Not in virtually any country but the UK. Engineering is a profession, just like Law or Medicine. In most countries you can only call yourself an Engineer if you are fully qualified - which means a degree and postgraduate experience to become recognised and receive chartered status from the professional Engineering body. Similar to a lawyer and a doctor. So in Germany the person who fixes your washing machine would be a repair technician, never an Engineering - but in the UK we seem to confuse the two. This is the equivalent of allowing a medical secretary to call themselves a doctor, or a dental assistant to call themselves a dentist.

I just wrote a reply and it has disappeared. *sigh* Try again.
Thank you - interesting. I suppose one could differentiate by using a capital E or a lower  case e, but you can't do that in speech! I think the word 'technician' is becoming more widely used - I shall certainly use it myself in future. In fact last week I had an echocardiogram which was done by a young man who was not a doctor. That seems a very sensible idea, to use a technician to take the readings,  and a doctor will be interpreting the results anyway.

(I shal find out next week whether my heart taking an occasional rest might do better with a pacemaker!! )

[ProfessorDavey]

I just wrote a reply and it has disappeared. *sigh* Try again.
Thank you - interesting. I suppose one could differentiate by using a capital E or a lower  case e, but you can't do that in speech!

And do you think other highly qualified trained professions would be happy to do the same.

So should we have Doctors and doctors, perhaps Lawyers and lawyers.

Training to become a fully qualified Engineer takes pretty well the same amount of time, and is at the same level of qualification, as the education and training required to become a Doctor.

You can perhaps understand why Engineers get a tad miffed when people describe the person who replaces the thermostat on your radiator as a Central Heating Engineer!!

[Walter]

And do you think other highly qualified trained professions would be happy to do the same.

So should we have Doctors and doctors, perhaps Lawyers and lawyers.

Training to become a fully qualified Engineer takes pretty well the same amount of time, and is at the same level of qualification, as the education and training required to become a Doctor.

You can perhaps understand why Engineers get a tad miffed when people describe the person who replaces the thermostat on your radiator as a Central Heating Engineer!!

Wiki gives a good description of an engineer .

[SusanDoris]

And do you think other highly qualified trained professions would be happy to do the same.

No, that was not what I meant - Using a screen reader I had not thought to increase the magnification to see whether it was E or e.

[/quote]

[Harrowby Hall]

HH I think you have too pal.

And how is my post not related to "Education and aspirations"?

Particularly when it related to a comment by Nigel Farage in the Any Questions? discussion of the very topic the OP is about?

[Walter]

And how is my post not related to "Education and aspirations"?

Particularly when it related to a comment by Nigel Farage in the Any Questions? discussion of the very topic the OP is about?

didn't say it wasn't,
the point you've missed is the one made by Nigel Farage.

[Harrowby Hall]

Nigel Farage was not making a point. He was merely exposing yet another flaw in his ill-considered and destructive philosophy: he does not understand the difference between education and training.

[Walter]

Nigel Farage was not making a point. He was merely exposing yet another flaw in his ill-considered and destructive philosophy: he does not understand the difference between education and training.

judging by your post n#25 , he does

[L.A.]

If I can broaden this discussion a little:

I half listened to the Any Questions? repeat on Saturday. The fact that Nigel Farage was on the panel had lessened its potential interest for me. But it was a part of Farage's response to the question on education which attracted my attention. He said something like ... one of the problems of universities today are that they are producing too many graduates with "-ologies" rather than something useful.

Nigel Farage has never been to university. He has no direct experience of higher education. In my judgement, this is an additional weakness in his fitness to pontificate on the state of Britain today. I worked for a quarter of a century in HE and the institution which employed me progressed from college of technology, through being a constituent of larger, regional college, split into separate FE and HE instititions and the HE institution became a university from which I eventually retired.

Now, I do admit to having an -ology, psychology. I worked in a Business School where I was involved in subject areas such as research methods in business, quantitative methods, business communication and consumer behaviour. Frequently, students - eager to get to work doing something which they perceived as being a "hands-on" practical activity - would ask "Why are we doing this? We came here to learn (for example) marketing not this stuff."

My answer was always that it would be their employer's job to train them in their various work activities. What we were doing was to train them in skills which they would need when they had risen from operational roles to management and strategic roles. We were helping them to develop skills in analysis and evaluation, giving them the opportunity to be creative and to persuade and convince others of their conclusions and proposals.

This is the real educational purpose of all university programmes. For most students, the subject area they study is there to aid in their own development, it is a context within which higher level, general skills can develop. Some will stay in their subject areas and conduct research and expand understanding of that subject. Some, like medical students will become practitioners in the subjects they have studied. Most, however, will work in areas unconnected with the subject they have studied but their general higher level skills will be the key to their future progress and success.

Farage missed the point.

Unfortunately, it's a fact of life today that unless you come from a fairly wealthy family, you have to seriously consider that actual value that a degree might be worth in terms of enhancing you future earning before you commit yourself to several tens of thousands of pounds of debt . . . which rather limits your options.

[Walter]

Unfortunately, it's a fact of life today that unless you come from a fairly wealthy family, you have to seriously consider that actual value that a degree might be worth in terms of enhancing you future earning before you commit yourself to several tens of thousands of pounds of debt . . . which rather limits your options.

I used to talk to a bloke down the pub who had a degree in art history he hadn't worked for 5 years , didn't have a clue what he wanted to do. He became interesting after 6 pints of Theakstons.
Nice enough bloke but incapable of rewiring a plug.

[L.A.]

I used to talk to a bloke down the pub who had a degree in art history he hadn't worked for 5 years , didn't have a clue what he wanted to do. He became interesting after 6 pints of Theakstons.
Nice enough bloke but incapable of rewiring a plug.

The tragedy is that some people are taking on on all that debt and at the end of the process they have a degree but are virtually unemployable.

We have friends with a son who has a history degree - he works part time in a charity shop.

[Walter]

The tragedy is that some people are taking on on all that debt and at the end of the process they have a degree but are virtually unemployable.

We have friends with a son who has a history degree - he works part time in a charity shop.

at least he will find comfort in knowing something about the old tat that comes into the shop

[Jack Knave]

sorry - yes, of course, I'm assuming telepathy! There was a question about how the education system should and could help children, e.g. children who have free school meals, to have more of a chance of getting to Oxbridge, as if all children should aspire to careers in law, teaching, etc etc.

One of the points of education is to assess a person's skill and talents and give them the means to realise their potential. Trying to force people into inappropriate lines of work to suit an ideology is sheer folly. So all skills should be appreciated that help to keep a country, nation and peoples running smoothly. I would think that this is agreeing with your position. The thing about Grammar schools, and the like, is that a certain group of people are set a side from the main flow of society to get an uplift to their talents. The problem here is the 'setting a side' which means they lose the empathy with their fellow countryman. I think Comprehensives are better because of this as they can get their education, through streaming, and be in contact with the world they are going to be part of when they start their careers.

[Walter]

One of the points of education is to assess a person's skill and talents and give them the means to realise their potential. Trying to force people into inappropriate lines of work to suit an ideology is sheer folly. So all skills should be appreciated that help to keep a country, nation and peoples running smoothly. I would think that this is agreeing with your position. The thing about Grammar schools, and the like, is that a certain group of people are set a side from the main flow of society to get an uplift to their talents. The problem here is the 'setting a side' which means they lose the empathy with their fellow countryman. I think Comprehensives are better because of this as they can get their education, through streaming, and be in contact with the world they are going to be part of when they start their careers.

not sure about the setting aside being the reason for loosing empathy. In my case I didn't have it in the first place.
In fact at about age 13 my first real ambition was to get out of the place I lived in.

[Sebastian Toe]

In fact at about age 13 my first real ambition was to get out of the place I lived in.

..well, nobody really likes borstal, do they? 

[Walter]

..well, nobody really likes borstal, do they? 

hey, I went to a good school, it was approved

[Brownie]

hey, I went to a good school, it was approved

You're not alone there, Walter!

...at about age 13 my first real ambition was to get out of the place I lived in.

Me too.

[Walter]

You're not alone there, Walter!

Me too.

did you succeed Brownie?

[Brownie]

What, in my Approved school?  I suppose one could see it as character building.
I certainly learned a few new things.

[Walter]

What, in my Approved school?  I suppose one could see it as character building.
I certainly learned a few new things.

I think we have our wires crossed here!

[Brownie]

   I think so too.

[Walter]

  I think so too.

the  'approved school ' line was a joke (from the 1970s) not a good one I admit . the bit about me wanting to leave where I was from was true though. when you said 'me too' then I asked if you were successful .simple