Education and aspirations

[Brownie]

Yeah, I realised that eventually Walter but I was sent to an Approved School for "Being in need of Care and Protection", when I was sixteen.  I was there for two years.

It certainly was an education!

I also wanted to get away from where I lived and tried very hard, running away, going missing for periods of time, which led to the above - so I was successful in achieving that but definitely not in the way I wanted. 

(Prior to all that I was at grammar school.)

Dunno about being successful generally, I'm still alive so I must have done something right.

[Walter]

Yeah, I realised that eventually Walter but I was sent to an Approved School for "Being in need of Care and Protection", when I was sixteen.  I was there for two years.

It certainly was an education!

I also wanted to get away from where I lived and tried very hard, running away, going missing for periods of time, which led to the above - so I was successful in achieving that but definitely not in the way I wanted. 

(Prior to all that I was at grammar school.)

Dunno about being successful generally, I'm still alive so I must have done something right.

now I see where the confusion arose . A very interesting story there Brownie. I know this will sound strange but I feel I know you!

[Brownie]

Hee hee, I doubt it, Walter.  The only Walter I ever knew was my dad and he has not been around since 1973!

You may have known people with a similar story, though.

What happened to me in the 1960s would not happen now.  I had no rights at all when I was sixteen and wasn't listened to or even particularly cared about.  Same for the other girls with whom I spent two years, some of them were really great characters with backgrounds and stories that would break your heart.

It certainly was an education. One positive from the experience was that I became kinder, more empathetic. 

Still, long time ago.  I'm 66 going on 67, about time I put it all behind me  .

[Sebastian Toe]

Hee hee, I doubt it, Walter.  The only Walter I ever knew was my dad and he has not been around since 1973!

I once met a guy who was carrying a long pole down the street.
I asked him 'Are you a pole vaulter?'

He said  "No, I'm German - and how on earth do you know my christian name?"

[ProfessorDavey]

Unfortunately, it's a fact of life today that unless you come from a fairly wealthy family, you have to seriously consider that actual value that a degree might be worth in terms of enhancing you future earning before you commit yourself to several tens of thousands of pounds of debt . . . which rather limits your options.

Firstly that completely misunderstand the way student finance works, but sadly it is a common misconception.

If you are from a poor background there will be a bursary to reduce tuition fee costs and secondly there is nothing to pay up front, so there isn't a question of 'not being able to afford it'.

Sure the debt needs to be paid off, but it is only payable once you reach a particular level of earnings, so if you don't earn much you pay very little (or nothing back). Also it is paid at a set rate and time limited - so if over a lifetime you earn little you won't pay the full amount back - indeed possible you might pay nothing back (unlikely but possible).

And there is amply evidence that the additional earning power over a working lifetime if you have a degree significantly out ways the levels of debt payable for that degree. Sure you can find examples that buck the trend - the millionaire that left school at 16 - but on average if you have a degree you will have better opportunities, more choice and way better earning power over your working life than if not. And, of course, that even continues after you have retired, as the likely pension levels for graduates (which link of course to that working life earning power) are greater than for non graduates.

So don't perpetuate the myth that having a degree doesn't make sense in purely financial terms - it does. But of course a degree provides much more than just money, it opens up career opportunities that are simply unavailable to those without a degree.

[ProfessorDavey]

One of the points of education is to assess a person's skill and talents and give them the means to realise their potential. Trying to force people into inappropriate lines of work to suit an ideology is sheer folly.

Agreed - but it is also sheer folly to try to force a view that a certain type of job (e.g. lawyer, doctor) isn't for 'people like you' (i.e. from poor backgrounds without a tradition of higher education and entering the professions) - where kids have the potential and the ambition we should support that. Currently there is a far greater problem of kids from poor backgrounds being dissuaded from aspiring high than of kids being pushed into a professional path they aren't particularly keen on. Why, because in the first instance the decision is irrevocable - once a kid decides against going to University etc there is usually no route back. If a kid is pushed to become a lawyer against their will, they will simply choose at a later stage to move away from law into something else they enjoy, and with a legal background will likely find that relatively easy.

And on your empathy point - actually it is very important that there are people in our professions from a whole range of backgrounds, because of their wider ability to empathise. If all lawyers were rich, public school and Oxbridge educated how much harder would it be to empathise with the situation of a young man slowly descending into a life of petty (and then non petty) crime due to a chaotic and grindingly poor upbringing and having no prospects.

[Brownie]

Prof D: ...  there are people in our professions from a whole range of backgrounds, because of their wider ability to empathise

That's very true and a lot of those went to grammar schools, their parents would have found it difficult to pay for education.

[Walter]

Prof D: ...  there are people in our professions from a whole range of backgrounds, because of their wider ability to empathise

That's very true and a lot of those went to grammar schools, their parents would have found it difficult to pay for education.

it wasn't the education which had to be paid for it was the uniform and every other piece of kit which almost crippled my parents'  finances. I was the first kid in my extended family who got this opportunity and luckily for me they chipped in with various  gifts of satchels, kit bags, boots , maths sets, Actually I am typing through tears as I remember all those lovely people who saw something in me at age 11 . They are all dead now but I will remember them always.

[Brownie]

Aw, that's lovely!  I honestly didn't know grammar schools (& the minor public schools who gave free "grammar school" places, like the GPDST which is where I went), had more uniform than, say, the comprehensives.   Everyone seemed to wear school uniform in those days, including ugly regulation indoor and outdoor shoes, stupid hats which had to be worn, heavy gaberdine raincoats and all the rest.  I suppose the initial outlay was expensive, after that it was just a question of replacing things as they were outgrown or worn out.   The only thing I liked was the scarf for some reason, I hung onto mine years after I was expelled, and the blazer wasn't bad.

The thing about regulation school uniforms is that there is no competition during the school week, parents don't have to supply endless outfits and shoes, especially for girls, and in my day clothes were a lot more expensive than now.

The local comp girls had to wear similar to us.

School uniforms are far more sensible and comfortable now, thank goodness.

[L.A.]

Firstly that completely misunderstand the way student finance works, but sadly it is a common misconception.

If you are from a poor background there will be a bursary to reduce tuition fee costs and secondly there is nothing to pay up front, so there isn't a question of 'not being able to afford it'.

Sure the debt needs to be paid off, but it is only payable once you reach a particular level of earnings, so if you don't earn much you pay very little (or nothing back). Also it is paid at a set rate and time limited - so if over a lifetime you earn little you won't pay the full amount back - indeed possible you might pay nothing back (unlikely but possible).

And there is amply evidence that the additional earning power over a working lifetime if you have a degree significantly out ways the levels of debt payable for that degree. Sure you can find examples that buck the trend - the millionaire that left school at 16 - but on average if you have a degree you will have better opportunities, more choice and way better earning power over your working life than if not. And, of course, that even continues after you have retired, as the likely pension levels for graduates (which link of course to that working life earning power) are greater than for non graduates.

So don't perpetuate the myth that having a degree doesn't make sense in purely financial terms - it does. But of course a degree provides much more than just money, it opens up career opportunities that are simply unavailable to those without a degree.

I can't agree with that prof. My grandson is in the position where he needs to make decisions about university and we have all spent time looking at the options.

Bursaries do exist in theory - but in practice are near impossible to obtain these days.

It's true that you only start to repay tuition fees when you earn more than a certain amount, which is fine if your degree sets you on course to become a 'high flyer', but if that is not the case, you have that 'payment ceiling' hanging over for a very long time, which will inevitably affect your credit rating and mortgage  prospects. And of course, most students will require student loans, which have a much lower threshold for repayment.

Yes, a degree ought to give you much more than extra earning capacity,  but if it doesn't give some financial benefit and you aren't  quite well-of to start with, the 'benefits' of a degree might blight your life forever.


My grandson has managed to get an apprenticeship with college, so he is currently earning BTEC points that would give him more choice of possible universities and would allow him to skip the Foundation year, or alternatively he could go down the HNC route.

[Walter]

Aw, that's lovely!  I honestly didn't know grammar schools (& the minor public schools who gave free "grammar school" places, like the GPDST which is where I went), had more uniform than, say, the comprehensives.   Everyone seemed to wear school uniform in those days, including ugly regulation indoor and outdoor shoes, stupid hats which had to be worn, heavy gaberdine raincoats and all the rest.  I suppose the initial outlay was expensive, after that it was just a question of replacing things as they were outgrown or worn out.   The only thing I liked was the scarf for some reason, I hung onto mine years after I was expelled, and the blazer wasn't bad.

The thing about regulation school uniforms is that there is no competition during the school week, parents don't have to supply endless outfits and shoes, especially for girls, and in my day clothes were a lot more expensive than now.

The local comp girls had to wear similar to us.

School uniforms are far more sensible and comfortable now, thank goodness.

I've still got my 'house' tie .

[SusanDoris]

One of the points of education is to assess a person's skill and talents and give them the means to realise their potential. Trying to force people into inappropriate lines of work to suit an ideology is sheer folly. So all skills should be appreciated that help to keep a country, nation and peoples running smoothly. I would think that this is agreeing with your position. The thing about Grammar schools, and the like, is that a certain group of people are set a side from the main flow of society to get an uplift to their talents. The problem here is the 'setting a side' which means they lose the empathy with their fellow countryman. I think Comprehensives are better because of this as they can get their education, through streaming, and be in contact with the world they are going to be part of when they start their careers.

Yes I agree. When the comprehensive system was first introduced, you couldn't falt the aims, that all children should be able to reach their  full potential under the same roof, but the planning, the teachers, the right spaces, the money, etc were all insufficient to fulfil the aims, as most people with common sense knew!

[floo]

For my secondary education I attended an independent school, a Ladies College, as a fee payer, however it also took scholarship girls. The uniform was strictly observed, even down to the green knickers we were forced to wear!

[Walter]

For my secondary education I attended an independent school, a Ladies College, as a fee payer, however it also took scholarship girls. The uniform was strictly observed, even down to the green knickers we were forced to wear!

Oh stop it Floo!

[ProfessorDavey]

Bursaries do exist in theory - but in practice are near impossible to obtain these days.

I am sorry but I have to occasionally speak from actual experience of running a university department and therefore knowing that bursaries are very real. Part of the agreement to allow universities to charge additional fees, up to £9k was an 'offer', whereby a significant proportion of that income is re-invested into bursaries for students from poorer households. They do exist very much in practice. And to give you an idea of the magnitude - the department I was head of until September provided nearly £600k in bursaries just last year. Yes that's right six hundred thousand pounds. Any student from a household with an income below £42k per annum gets a bursary in my university.

It's true that you only start to repay tuition fees when you earn more than a certain amount, which is fine if your degree sets you on course to become a 'high flyer', but if that is not the case, you have that 'payment ceiling' hanging over for a very long time, which will inevitably affect your credit rating and mortgage  prospects. And of course, most students will require student loans, which have a much lower threshold for repayment.

You are getting a bit confused - if your income is low you don't pay back.

Yes, a degree ought to give you much more than extra earning capacity,  but if it doesn't give some financial benefit and you aren't  quite well-of to start with, the 'benefits' of a degree might blight your life forever.

But your latter point simply isn't true. Our Principal always makes this point at graduation - firstly that a degree does substantially improve earning potential, but that a degree provides much, much more than simply the ability to earn much more (on average) than those without degrees. But the point remains that graduates earn substantially more than non graduates and that additional earning power is greater several times over than the debt accrued in gaining that degree.

My grandson has managed to get an apprenticeship with college, so he is currently earning BTEC points that would give him more choice of possible universities and would allow him to skip the Foundation year, or alternatively he could go down the HNC route.

Many universities are now offering degree apprentices - in other words you gain a degree while also participating in a reputable apprentice scheme. Not sure what stage your grandson is at, but he might want to consider this option if his choices are still open.

[Brownie]

For my secondary education I attended an independent school, a Ladies College, as a fee payer, however it also took scholarship girls. The uniform was strictly observed, even down to the green knickers we were forced to wear!

You are a tease, floo!  However that was not unusual.

We had navy blue ones and I knew people in other schools who had brown, etc.  We were supposed to wear them all the time but absolutely had to, with a regulation aertex short sleeved shirt, for gym.  We wore ordinary ones, eg white cotton, underneath.   They were pretty awful really but it was the norm in those days.

Did you like your school, floo?

[floo]

You are a tease, floo!  However that was not unusual.

We had navy blue ones and I knew people in other schools who had brown, etc.  We were supposed to wear them all the time but absolutely had to, with a regulation aertex short sleeved shirt, for gym.  We wore ordinary ones, eg white cotton, underneath.   They were pretty awful really but it was the norm in those days.

Did you like your school, floo?

I am not teasing, the games mistress used to check we were wearing the green school knickers!

I can't say I ever enjoyed school, especially my elementary one (4-14), I was bullied because my parents were better off than most! The Ladies College I attended was very much like Harry Potter's Hogwarts in many ways, many of the staff would have fitted in well there. The Latin master believed he was a ghost of a prophet, I kid you not!

[Brownie]

Wow!  It's a pity I didn't live in the vicinity, it sounds good.  Did they take boarders?

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes, a degree ought to give you much more than extra earning capacity,  but if it doesn't give some financial benefit and you aren't  quite well-of to start with, the 'benefits' of a degree might blight your life forever.

Recent analysis of graduate and non graduate salaries indicates that over an earning lifetime graduates earn £500,000 more than non graduates. Now I know debt levels are high, but even with debts of £50k you'd pay that off ten times over through the additional earning power from having a degree.

[floo]

Wow!  It's a pity I didn't live in the vicinity, it sounds good.  Did they take boarders?

No it doesn't, there was no need to, as nobody lives more than a few miles from the school.

I am still in contact with my geography mistress, now 90. I phone her once a month as she likes to hear my news. I still feel I should be sitting to attention though, as she was quite strict, but one of the best teachers!  When I reached 60 she said I could call her by her first name as I was now an OAP! I found it hard at first as 'Miss' seemed more appropriate!

[Brownie]

No chance of me having gone there then, with green knickers.  Had to make do with the navy blue ones and no Hogwarts type teachers  .

[floo]

No chance of me having gone there then, with green knickers.  Had to make do with the navy blue ones and no Hogwarts type teachers  .

The handwork mistress wore a black gown (no other teacher did) and fingerless mittens when teaching us, she looked like a witch and was only missing the hat!

The chemistry mistress sat at her desk one day when her chair tipped over. There she was lying on the floor, legs in the air, with her long pink knickers on display. We all lifted our desk lids as we tried not to giggle! She righted herself and said,  "Gals you may laugh!"

[Walter]

The handwork mistress wore a black gown (no other teacher did) and fingerless mittens when teaching us, she looked like a witch and was only missing the hat!

The chemistry mistress sat at her desk one day when her chair tipped over. There she was lying on the floor, legs in the air, with her long pink knickers on display. We all lifted our desk lids as we tried not to giggle! She righted herself and said,  "Gals you may laugh!"

Brilliant
what an image , it could be a comedy sketch

[L.A.]

I am sorry but I have to occasionally speak from actual experience of running a university department and therefore knowing that bursaries are very real. Part of the agreement to allow universities to charge additional fees, up to £9k was an 'offer', whereby a significant proportion of that income is re-invested into bursaries for students from poorer households. They do exist very much in practice. And to give you an idea of the magnitude - the department I was head of until September provided nearly £600k in bursaries just last year. Yes that's right six hundred thousand pounds. Any student from a household with an income below £42k per annum gets a bursary in my university.

I speak from bitter experience. A year or so ago my grandson, was living with his father who was on benefit. They investigated the possibility of a bursary and were told that he was not eligible.

Maybe, if you know the right way to 'work the system' - it might be possible, but otherwise no.

You are getting a bit confused - if your income is low you don't pay back.
But your latter point simply isn't true. Our Principal always makes this point at graduation - firstly that a degree does substantially improve earning potential, but that a degree provides much, much more than simply the ability to earn much more (on average) than those without degrees. But the point remains that graduates earn substantially more than non graduates and that additional earning power is greater several times over than the debt accrued in gaining that degree.
Many universities are now offering degree apprentices - in other words you gain a degree while also participating in a reputable apprentice scheme. Not sure what stage your grandson is at, but he might want to consider this option if his choices are still open.

I fully understand that if your income is low you don't pay back your tuition fees, so if you intend to live the rest of your life on a low wage - no problem!

Likewise, if you get a 1st in the right subject you ought to get a very good  wage and repaying the loan will not be a problem.

The problem arises if you get a mediocre grade or even a reasonable grade in the wrong subject - McDonnalds are full of Media Studies graduates, I have a friend who still has to support his 30something daughter who has a Fine Arts degree.


As far as my grandson is concerned, he is earning and learning and has time to reflect on his future. He is no longer certain that he wants to take a degree but his options are still open and he has plenty of time to decide.

[ProfessorDavey]

I speak from bitter experience. A year or so ago my grandson, was living with his father who was on benefit. They investigated the possibility of a bursary and were told that he was not eligible.

Maybe, if you know the right way to 'work the system' - it might be possible, but otherwise no.

When you apply to the student finance company you provide standard information of basic household income - this is used automatically to apply bursaries in accordance with the agreements universities made to allow them to raise fees. There is no need to 'investigate the possibility of a bursary' no need to 'work the system' all you need to do is to honesty respond to the questions on the student finance system and you (in our case and I think this is standard) will get a bursary if your household income is less than £42k.

I can't speak about your grandson's example specifically but I wonder whether there was income coming in to support him from his mother, which would necessarily (and rightly) be taken into account. That is, of course, to counter the ages old game (prevalent back in my day of maintenance grants) of parents claiming to be separated and for the child to be living with the one earning next to nothing.

I do have to ask though - who told you he wasn't eligible - I presume the student finance company as it is their information that determines eligibility.