Education and aspirations

[Gonnagle]

Dear Thread,

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/14/courageous-thinking-labour-education-jeremy-corbyn

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/aug/13/quarter-of-graduates-are-low-earners

A simple question you should ask yourself, how important is education? For me it is vitally important to the future of our country, if you agree with me then hopefully you agree it should be free to all.

Gonnagle.

[Walter]

Dear Thread,

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/14/courageous-thinking-labour-education-jeremy-corbyn

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/aug/13/quarter-of-graduates-are-low-earners

A simple question you should ask yourself, how important is education? For me it is vitally important to the future of our country, if you agree with me then hopefully you agree it should be free to all.

Gonnagle.

Gonners

that is probably the best post you have ever made , well said 

[Walter]

but universities should stop with the 'Mickey Mouse' degrees though

[Walter]

both my niece and her husband have 'ologies' she works in a shop and he drives home delivery vans for ASDA

[floo]

Brilliant
what an image , it could be a comedy sketch

There were a lot of incidents in my secondary school years, which would have made a great sit com!

The Maths mistress always wore knee socks. She was quite strict and had a thing about cats, I remember once she saw one just outside the classroom widow. She gave a screech and went running out to chase it away, it was hilarious!

The French mistress disliked the smell of oranges, if anyone had any in their lunchbox they were liberally squeezed all over her desk and chair!

One of the masters was having his wicked way with a girl in the sixth form, she was one of the prefects! At lunchtime if he was on duty he made us all stand as the she waltzed her way down the school staircase into the dining room. Once she was seated next to him we were permitted to open our lunchboxes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was the biology master's task to discuss human reproduction with the 5th year girls of which I was one, poor man was highly embarrassed. When he was getting down to the nitty gritty his face went bright red. He happened to be wearing a red tie, and the class cried, "Ooooh Sir, you are going as red as your tie." 

The Latin Master also taught geography, at which he was useless. Before he came into the classroom someone would ensure the maps in the map cupboard were stacked in such a way that they would fall out on top of him when he opened the cupboard. It happened each time, but he never seemed to cotton on! One day he decided to tell us jokes instead, when the headmistress  entered the classroom with some visitors. Addressing the master she said, "Now Mr W what are you teaching the gals today?"   He said he had been teaching us about sheep farming in Australia, the subject of one of his jokes! One wet lunchtime when he was on lunch duty he decided to tell us some ghost stories. They were quite scary, and he was in deep proverbial with the head after many complaints from parents!

There are many more anecdotes but those will suffice!

[Nearly Sane]

Only Floos and courses?

[Walter]

Floo keep em coming they are great stories

[Walter]

Only Floos and courses?

very good 

[floo]

Floo keep em coming they are great stories

Just one more then I will shut up. We did 'Caesar and Cleopatra' as a school play, which ran for three nights.  On the last night one of the sixth form girls brought in some gin and put it into the drinks of the main players at the interval, they were completely sloshed by the time they went back on stage. It was hilarious, but when the head discovered what had happened I believe there was one hell of a fuss!

[SusanDoris]

both my niece and her husband have 'ologies' she works in a shop and he drives home delivery vans for ASDA

good for them - both workingearning money, paying taxes, etc. Whether young people have ologies or not, they should  be adaptable and prepared to take a variety of jobs during their lives, whether they are what they actually trained for in the first place or not. The fact that they both have put in the hours of study required for their degrees will probably make them better able to do this.
Generally speaking, whatever jobs anyone takes on should never be considered not good enough, or too good, or demeaning because of their degrees.

I was talking to a builder one day (it was at the gym actually) and he was saying that he was no good at school, but that an uncle had told him to be a builder as he'd never be out of work. It didn't matter if he couldn't read the blueprint, he and his fellow workers were the ones who actually built the walls, etc. He had prospered.

[Walter]

good for them - both workingearning money, paying taxes, etc. Whether young people have ologies or not, they should  be adaptable and prepared to take a variety of jobs during their lives, whether they are what they actually trained for in the first place or not. The fact that they both have put in the hours of study required for their degrees will probably make them better able to do this.
Generally speaking, whatever jobs anyone takes on should never be considered not good enough, or too good, or demeaning because of their degrees.

I was talking to a builder one day (it was at the gym actually) and he was saying that he was no good at school, but that an uncle had told him to be a builder as he'd never be out of work. It didn't matter if he couldn't read the blueprint, he and his fellow workers were the ones who actually built the walls, etc. He had prospered.

I've read it somewhere Lord Sugar isn't very bright but he's done all right.

[L.A.]

. . .

I do have to ask though - who told you he wasn't eligible - I presume the student finance company as it is their information that determines eligibility.

Although he was living with his father at the time, his mother accompanied him to a university open day and I'm sure they asked all right questions. She is generally pretty 'savvy' but the verdict was - no chance of a bursary.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I've read it somewhere Lord Sugar isn't very bright but he's done all right.

Walter.....You're fired.

[ProfessorDavey]

Although he was living with his father at the time, his mother accompanied him to a university open day and I'm sure they asked all right questions. She is generally pretty 'savvy' but the verdict was - no chance of a bursary.

Bursaries aren't decided on the basis of a conversation at an open day. They are decided on the basis of the information you fill in on your application to the Student Finance Company - and then they are applied automatically based on the University's rules.

As I said last year my department gave out £600,000 in bursaries with every student with household income below £42k (as declared to the Student Finance Company) getting one. Those with incomes less than £25k had bursaries at an enhanced level.

Maybe his mother was asking the wrong questions, perhaps she misinterpreted the answer, maybe including the income from both parents household income is greater than £42k - I've no idea.

But your original suggestion that bursaries only exist in theory but not in practice is utter non-sense as my departmental balance sheet very clearly demonstrates.

[ProfessorDavey]

Although he was living with his father at the time, his mother accompanied him to a university open day and I'm sure they asked all right questions. She is generally pretty 'savvy' but the verdict was - no chance of a bursary.

Can you tell me which university and which course.

As far as I am aware (and I should be aware given my profession) all universities have very similar schemes, which are in fact required by OFFA (the Office for Fair Access) in order to be able to charge fees up to £9k.

And a very cursory glance at 3 universities plucked at random (Liverpool, Leeds and Nottingham Trent) shows identical basic schemes - all are based on means testing via information given to the Student Finance Company, all are applied automatically and in no case do you need actually to apply for the bursary. There are differences in the level of the bursaries and the threshold for household income (so my university and Leeds give bursaries up to £42k income, Liverpool restricts to £30k).

But the point remains, the bursaries are very, very real and tens of thousands of students are benefiting from them as we speak.

[Brownie]

I've read it somewhere Lord Sugar isn't very bright but he's done all right.

Lord Sugar is quite bright actually, I'm not saying he's a 'high flyer' academically but well above average.  He could have gone to a grammar school but was actually head hunted for a new, flagship comprehensive where he flourished.  He did, however, drop out of the sixth form after one year because he felt he had learned enough for what he wanted to do - and went on to do it.

His autobiography, "What you see is what you get", was not ghost written but penned entirely by himself.
I loved it, though not particularly interested in business I was fascinated by the personal, family details and the way he described the era and circumstances in which he grew up.

[Udayana]

Info from a Soton university page:

http://www.southampton.ac.uk/uni-life/fees-funding/ug-fees-funding/financial-support.page

Bursaries of up to £3000 available for those on family incomes below £25000 (in addition to the normal SLC loans and with fees of £9K )

I don't recall the amounts of extra support and requirements for such being "standard" when my 2 applied for loans a few (3 and 6) years ago. I'm pretty sure it is up to the institution - though is based on the figures supplied to the SLC. In some cases other "rewards" are available depending on your A level results.

A detail - but not disagreeing in general, as it seems to me that the whole system, from start to end, is screwed anyway.

[ProfessorDavey]

Lord Sugar is quite bright actually, I'm not saying he's a 'high flyer' academically but well above average.  He could have gone to a grammar school but was actually head hunted for a new, flagship comprehensive where he flourished.  He did, however, drop out of the sixth form after one year because he felt he had learned enough for what he wanted to do - and went on to do it.

His autobiography, "What you see is what you get", was not ghost written but penned entirely by himself.
I loved it, though not particularly interested in business I was fascinated by the personal, family details and the way he described the era and circumstances in which he grew up.

I haven't read his autobiography, but your view doesn't surprise me at all.

I've always suspected that he was pretty smart. I doubt he would have been as successful as he has been had he not been. Sure he isn't a polished academic kind of smart, but that doesn't mean he isn't smart, nor that he lacked the intelligence to have attended university and been successful, had that been his desire. As it happens it wasn't - he was very keen to get out there earning in an entrepreneurual manner and good on him.

But for every Alan Sugar there are hundreds or thousands of other non graduates whose career prospects are limited by their lack of a degree.

[ProfessorDavey]

Info from a Soton university page:

http://www.southampton.ac.uk/uni-life/fees-funding/ug-fees-funding/financial-support.page

Bursaries of up to £3000 available for those on family incomes below £25000 (in addition to the normal SLC loans and with fees of £9K )

I don't recall the amounts of extra support and requirements for such being "standard" when my 2 applied for loans a few (3 and 6) years ago. I'm pretty sure it is up to the institution - though is based on the figures supplied to the SLC. In some cases other "rewards" are available depending on your A level results.

A detail - but not disagreeing in general, as it seems to me that the whole system, from start to end, is screwed anyway.

So that's Southampton to add to my list.

This mechanism was brought in in 2011 when the cap was removed on fees to allow them to rise to up to £9k. Every university was required to put in an 'offer' to OFFA (the office for fair access) effectively setting out a bursary scheme that would automatically apply to students from low income backgrounds. If they didn't do it or it wasn't considered generous enough, they weren't allowed to raise fees. Therefore all did and all universities (worth the name) have such a scheme, and they need to make sure that it works or else they are in deep, deep sh*t with the government.

You are correct too that some universities also offer additional 'excellence' scholarships for the very brightest students. But this is on top of the basic bursary offer to all students from low income backgrounds.

[L.A.]

Bursaries aren't decided on the basis of a conversation at an open day. They are decided on the basis of the information you fill in on your application to the Student Finance Company - and then they are applied automatically based on the University's rules.

As I said last year my department gave out £600,000 in bursaries with every student with household income below £42k (as declared to the Student Finance Company) getting one. Those with incomes less than £25k had bursaries at an enhanced level.

Maybe his mother was asking the wrong questions, perhaps she misinterpreted the answer, maybe including the income from both parents household income is greater than £42k - I've no idea.

But your original suggestion that bursaries only exist in theory but not in practice is utter non-sense as my departmental balance sheet very clearly demonstrates.

Open days are supposedly there to advise potential students and if they gave misleading information to my grandson, that probably means that they are giving misleading information to hundreds of thousands of others - but things have moved on.  He may yet take a degree ... or not ... who knows?

My daughter (his mother) did note that the main emphasis in the presentations was on how easy it was to get the loans and to trivialise the implications (as I feel you are doing)

[ProfessorDavey]

Open days are supposedly there to advise potential students and if they gave misleading information to my grandson, that probably means that they are giving misleading information to hundreds of thousands of others - but things have moved on.  He may yet take a degree ... or not ... who knows?

My daughter (his mother) did note that the main emphasis in the presentations was on how easy it was to get the loans and to trivialise the implications (as I feel you are doing)

May I ask again which university and which course - I will then check.

And why didn't you double check information on their web-site. While I certainly would never condone misleading information being provided, this may occasionally happen, either because the question was answered incorrectly, or because the question or the answer misinterpreted.

And no I am not trivialising the implications - but given the importance of student finance I find it surprising that you appear to have taken a single conversation at a single university (did your grandson only visit one, most prospective students visit a few) as indication that bursaries don't exist. They do and there are tens of thousands of students benefiting from them.

And you are massively exaggerating in your comment that 'they gave misleading information to my grandson, that probably means that they are giving misleading information to hundreds of thousands of others' - you are taking about the comments of one person, to you alone - I doubt that person spoke to more than a few dozen students and maybe it was only you that received misleading information (if that is the case). By the way always best to double check what is written in writing, which will be there on their web-site and probably in other written information.

[ProfessorDavey]

He may yet take a degree ... or not ... who knows?

In which case you are now (hopefully) aware that pretty well all universities (certainly outside of Scotland where different financial model applies) provide bursaries automatically on the basis of the information provided to the Student Finance Company. The details, namely the amount and the threshold for income will differ but they exist.

So please pass this information onto your daughter and grandson, and as a piece of advise I would always suggest double checking information you might have received verbally with what is provided in writing. Particularly as this is so important.

I'd strongly encourage your grandson to consider university and a degree, and certainly not to be put off by issues of finance. There are many reasons why a degree isn't right for everyone, many of them very valid. Concern about finance should never be one of those reasons. Don't forget that you don't pay anything back until earning £21k or more - which, you might want to note is higher than the average annual salary for non graduates.

[Sebastian Toe]

Walter.....You're fired.

Thank you, Lord Spoof.

[ProfessorDavey]

A simple question you should ask yourself, how important is education? For me it is vitally important to the future of our country, if you agree with me then hopefully you agree it should be free to all.

Gonnagle.

Easy to say, difficult to achieve. Someone has to pay for it, so if not the students, then all tax payers. And what that leads to is restrictions on numbers, as is happening in Scotland. So although university eduction is free, the Scottish government caps the number of students who are able to attend (and be paid for). So there is now a real issue of access to universities north of the border.

While the English system has plenty of flaws, because it is, in effect, self financing there is no actual cap on the students who can attend. If a student is good enough there will be a place somewhere - not so in Scotland.

[Nearly Sane]

Almost anything anyone is planning is going to be wrong. The amount of change that will hit in the next ten years makes career planning for mist a joke.