Alt Right = Neo Nazi?

[wigginhall]

just tell us what you really think

If I did that, I would be banned.

[ad_orientem]

No, I am not going to fucking calm down.  We are half -way to fascism, with twats like Farage, Le Pen and Trump at large. preaching their poison.

Then you have an odd idea of fascism because none of the above are anywhere close.

The political revolution that is happening is the work of normal white working class men whom the liberal elite have completely forgotten, being obsessed with gay rights and wiping out our culture by opening our borders to half the Middle-East. The liberal elite is scared and rightly so because their little bubble world is falling and so they counter with cries of "fascist"! Here's hoping Le Pen wins in France, another nail in the coffin of the liberal elite.

[Walter]

Then you have an odd idea of fascism because none of the above are anywhere close.

The political revolution that is happening is the work of normal white working class men whom the liberal elite have completely forgotten, being obsessed with gay rights and wiping out our culture by opening our borders to half the Middle-East. The liberal elite is scared and rightly so because their little bubble world is falling and so they counter with cries of "fascist"! Here's hoping Le Pen wins in France, another nail in the coffin of the liberal elite.

yep ,I tend to agree with you

[Aruntraveller]

The political revolution that is happening is the work of normal white working class men whom the liberal elite have completely forgotten, being obsessed with gay rights

It doesn't have to be a choice. You can be pro equal rights and address the needs of working people. I'm not going to dignify your post further as I note you highlight "white working class men" almost as if women and black working class men and women don't exist - or perhaps even worse don't matter.

Your post is the whiny fag end of white, male, heterosexist supremacy that just refuses to understand the changes in the real world.

I can't wait to see the business mastermind that is Trump bring back jobs to the USA. He's done so well with his own businesses after all.

PS remember that although Trump will become president due to the arcane system they use - he had considerably less votes than Clinton and it is her more inclusive view that chimes most with the US population.

We should perhaps apply the same system to our EU referendum as by that system we would not be leaving the EU.

[Walter]

It doesn't have to be a choice. You can be pro equal rights and address the needs of working people. I'm not going to dignify your post further as I note you highlight "white working class men" almost as if women and black working class men and women don't exist - or perhaps even worse don't matter.

Your post is the whiny fag end of white, male, heterosexist supremacy that just refuses to understand the changes in the real world.

I can't wait to see the business mastermind that is Trump bring back jobs to the USA. He's done so well with his own businesses after all.

PS remember that although Trump will become president due to the arcane system they use - he had considerably less votes than Clinton and it is her more inclusive view that chimes most with the US population.

We should perhaps apply the same system to our EU referendum as by that system we would not be leaving the EU.

as far as I can see, WE ARE

[Aruntraveller]

as far as I can see, WE ARE

Well who knows.

Clarity around the matter is in pretty short supply!

[Walter]

ANY WAY, that's all I'm going to say on the matter
. I don't involve myself in politics but I do like a good laugh watching people running about with wet knickers dissolving into apoplectic puddles of indignation (on all sides). Let the fun continue.

[Gonnagle]

Dear ad o and Waltz,

Very interesting, the theist and the atheist in agreement.

White working class men!! is that me, I work, I am white, well a sort of pale white and I am a man, result

Is there a club, can I join, is there a badge ( we don't need no stinking badges ) Oh wait! I forgot, normal, no I am definitely not normal, that's a shame, I bet you had plans for a smart uniform, some nice jack boots and a lovely wee black shirt, ya pair of merchant bankers

Ad o, I think baby Jesus wants a word with you

Gonnagle.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

ANY WAY, that's all I'm going to say on the matter
. I don't involve myself in politics but I do like a good laugh watching people running about with wet knickers dissolving into apoplectic puddles of indignation (on all sides). Let the fun continue.

Really? That's good to know - you didn't seem like you were having a good laugh when you were the one running about with wet knickers dissolving into apoplectic puddles on this forum. Maybe you have rethought your despair about what is happening in Britain and how you thought people needed to wake up to what is happening and your over-reaction about being blown to pieces by foreigners despite the statistical improbability.

[Walter]

Dear ad o and Waltz,

Very interesting, the theist and the atheist in agreement.

White working class men!! is that me, I work, I am white, well a sort of pale white and I am a man, result

Is there a club, can I join, is there a badge ( we don't need no stinking badges ) Oh wait! I forgot, normal, no I am definitely not normal, that's a shame, I bet you had plans for a smart uniform, some nice jack boots and a lovely wee black shirt, ya pair of merchant bankers

Ad o, I think baby Jesus wants a word with you

Gonnagle.

Hooda thought it eh?

aww, iccle baby jeebus!

[Walter]

Really? That's good to know - you didn't seem like you were having a good laugh when you were the one running about with wet knickers dissolving into apoplectic puddles on this forum. Maybe you have rethought your despair about what is happening in Britain and how you thought people needed to wake up to what is happening and your over-reaction about being blown to pieces by foreigners despite the statistical improbability.

Nope , still stands .

[wigginhall]

Then you have an odd idea of fascism because none of the above are anywhere close.

The political revolution that is happening is the work of normal white working class men whom the liberal elite have completely forgotten, being obsessed with gay rights and wiping out our culture by opening our borders to half the Middle-East. The liberal elite is scared and rightly so because their little bubble world is falling and so they counter with cries of "fascist"! Here's hoping Le Pen wins in France, another nail in the coffin of the liberal elite.

Well, I hope you're right, and I'm wrong.   In the 30s, plenty of people sleep-walked towards fascism, and said it didn't matter, or it would be controllable, or that the left would take power next, and so on.   In fact, plenty of Jews were saying this, plenty of Communists and Social Democrats were saying it, and many of them ended up in the camps or in exile.   These are dangerous times, and many people don't remember, or don't connect. 

[Brownie]

People generally seem oblivious to the fact that there are disaffected white, British youth with no religious affiliation who are being radicalised by fascist organisations.

[wigginhall]

People generally seem oblivious to the fact that there are disaffected white, British youth with no religious affiliation who are being radicalised by fascist organisations.

I don't think people know how to stop it.   The political parties ignore it.   There are anti-fascist and anti-racist organizations, but I don't know how much effect they have.   I wonder if the battle of Cable St would be repeated today.  Sad days.   However, in the old saying, don't mourn, organize.   Also, I think Scotland is very different. 

[wigginhall]

Trent wrote:

It doesn't have to be a choice. You can be pro equal rights and address the needs of working people. I'm not going to dignify your post further as I note you highlight "white working class men" almost as if women and black working class men and women don't exist - or perhaps even worse don't matter.

Your post is the whiny fag end of white, male, heterosexist supremacy that just refuses to understand the changes in the real world.

I think this is insightful.   A lot of proto-fascists strike a note of the patriarchy's revenge, or rather the white patriarchy.  Often anti-gay, misogynist, and of course anti-foreigner.   You can see the ramifications in different countries - for example, in the UK, the Labour party was centred on the heavy industries, very male dominated.  This has all gone, and Labour has lost its identity, and there is the turn to bigotry by some men, as in the US.   I was thinking also of Kinder, Kirche, Kuche, that emphasis by the Nazis on women in the home and the bedroom, too much of a threat to men anywhere else, so the right wing are often scornful of feminism.   And yes, the whiny tone is striking, but then they have lost a lot.

[ad_orientem]

It doesn't have to be a choice. You can be pro equal rights and address the needs of working people. I'm not going to dignify your post further as I note you highlight "white working class men" almost as if women and black working class men and women don't exist - or perhaps even worse don't matter.

Your post is the whiny fag end of white, male, heterosexist supremacy that just refuses to understand the changes in the real world.

False dichotomy! However, that is exactly what has happened to the white working class men. They have been forgotten, trodden as your language clearly demonstrates. It's alright to want to protect your identity, that is unless you're white, European and male, in which case you're worthy of nothing but disdain.

[Aruntraveller]

False dichotomy! However, that is exactly what has happened to the white working class men. They have been forgotten, trodden as your language clearly demonstrates. It's alright to want to protect your identity, that is unless you're white, European and male, in which case you're worthy of nothing but disdain.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I am white, European and male. I don't feel that my identity is under threat. You are talking of the white working class male as if it is some kind of homogenous group. They aren't and it isn't.

[wigginhall]

Yes, ad-O's analysis seems pretty crude.   I don't think you can talk about the white working class or the white European male as homogeneous categories.

My memory is, in any case, that fascism and far-right groups tend to appeal more to middle class people.   For example, in Germany many workers voted left, either Social Democrat or Communist, and not Nazi.   But this in itself is a generalization, which merits closer scrutiny.   

There is also the difference between holding power and not.  I mean that far-right groups tend to be populist and anti-elitist, when not in power, and they get their appeal partly from this, but if they achieve power, they are often hierarchical and of course,  authoritarian.  So you get a different elite.

It would be useful, for example, to look at the appeal of Le Pen to different sections of French society, but it would be also somewhat tedious.

[Brownie]

It doesn't do to make too many generalisations but it appears to me that far right fascist groups have often had an 'elite' hierarchy of upper middle or higher class social status 'leaders' (think Oswald Moseley), who recruit from those who are less polished and educated,  vulnerable to being radicalised.

[wigginhall]

It doesn't do to make too many generalisations but it appears to me that far right fascist groups have often had an 'elite' hierarchy of upper middle or higher class social status 'leaders' (think Oswald Moseley), who recruit from those who are less polished and educated,  vulnerable to being radicalised.

Not sure about that, Brownie.  Hitler was hardly upper class, was he?   Mussolini's father was a blacksmith.

In relation to right-wing groups (not fascist), I would hardly say that Le Pen, Farage and Trump are posh, really. 

There were a number of English aristocrats supporting the Nazis, but also plenty who didn't.  Of course, the obvious example are the Mitfords, but they were divided, two of them were friends of Hitler, but one of them was a communist, (Decca?).  Their dad hated foreigners and Catholics, so that was a good start in life.

[Brownie]

Well I did say one shouldn't generalise, Wigginhall.  You are probably right.

I was thinking mainly about Oswald Moseley.  I didn't know anything about Mussolini's background but Hitler's antecedents were of humble origin though his father did quite well, first in the military and then as a customs officer, so I suppose the family were upwardly mobile.

When I've watched TV expose-type documentaries about secret Nazi groups in Britain, the ones at the top seem to be better educated than the rank and file.  Don't know about class but they appear reasonably well turned out and articulate.

Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon, regardless of his poor background, is in a class of his own of course  !

[wigginhall]

They do tend to clean up their act, in order to become electable.   I think Le Pen expelled her father, as he tended to ramble on that the Nazi death camps were only a detail in the war, or something.  And they have become less anti-Semitic, but then they can bang on about Muslims now.  There has to be an Other who you can demonize, and Jews are not really appropriate today. 

[Brownie]

I agree with all of that though several Jews have written that they 'feel' a rise in anti-semitism.

I wonder who will be the next scapegoat?

I know at one time the EDL recruited and paraded a turban'd Sikh gentleman to make it look as though they weren't racist or anti most religions.   At the time all I hoped was that they gave him a decent bung and he was able to return to normal life and blend in as before.  Stupid man.  It could be his turn next!

[wigginhall]

Well, the beauty of it is, that you can have a rotating group of targets.   You could see that with Trump's campaign.  Muslims are at the top at the moment, with Jews held in reserve, don't forget those Rothschilds!  But in parts of Europe, gypsies (Roma) are also good for a kicking.

After that, wow, you are spoiled for choice.  Gays, and other perverts, and don't forget women, you can always whip up some enthusiasm for banning abortion, esp. in the US. 

[Jack Knave]

First of all let's underline what alt right is not. It is not Trump, it is not Farage, it is not all their supporters, it is not a majority of their supporters, it isn't even a significantly large minority of the supporters.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/alt-right-salutes-donald-trump.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/

What they are are people still living in the pre civil war America. Not a pretty site!