Author Topic: Being upbeat about Brexit.  (Read 41968 times)

jakswan

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #375 on: January 21, 2017, 10:40:56 AM »
Quite possible. Honestly, I'm struggling to understand what point you are trying to make.

Davey is claiming that no one knew we would leave single market, despite leaders of remain and leave explicity stating it meant exactly that. In order to defend his claim he has found a leave document that mentioned a free trade area.

I think May's aims in her negotiation are consistent with being in a free trade area.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #376 on: January 21, 2017, 10:46:40 AM »
Labour are voting for article 50 after May's speech, once that is invoked two years and we are out.
You are making a whole raft of assumptions there:

1. This timetable is likely to be very dependent on the outcome of the Supreme Court hearing. Firstly on the basis of whether the court rules on the nature of the Parliamentary involvement, and secondly if the Government loses whether they will chose to appeal again.

2. That Labour MPs do vote in the manner you indicate (and that Tories all vote in favour of Article 50) - there will undoubtedly be rebels and on the Labour benches it remains unclear (not really news as it is Corbyn we are dealing with) whether Labour MPs will be whipped or given a free vote.

3. Any Parliamentary process will involve the Lords and then all bets are off.

4. That a deal can be agreed within the 2 year timetable, which looking at negotiating time for other deals of similar complexity (actually most are less complex) seems very, very optimistic.

5. If a deal isn't concluded by 2 years I suspect it will be in everyones interests to extend the negotiating period, which is allowed, which would necessarily delay the actual point at which we leave the EU.

6. That a potential transitional deal could actually involve an extended period as a member of the EU, or perhaps more likely as a member of EEA.

7. That this period doesn't extend to a point when there is a general election and therefore the most recent mandate will be that of the new government and not the referendum vote.

8. That the pressure for a second referendum isn't successful - if there is a second referendum then we have no idea on outcome, nor timetable.

But hey you can chose to live in your naive, simplistic world if you want. I chose to live in the real world.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #377 on: January 21, 2017, 10:49:29 AM »
Davey is claiming that no one knew we would leave single market
No I didn't - I said that many Leave campaigners (and their official manifesto) indicated we would remain.

What I am saying is that is was very, very far from clear leading up to the referendum that brexit meant leaving the single market (and it is my opinion that that lack of clarity on the Leave side was deliberate). And had it been clear that brexit meant out of the single market then it may well have persuaded sufficient voters to opt for remain rather than leave to change the outcome.

jakswan

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #378 on: January 21, 2017, 10:50:54 AM »
Yes you were.

Just a few posts ago you stated that:

'If we have tariff free access to the single market then there is equivalence to being in the single market ...' (my emphasis).

Last time I looked equivalence was defined as equal in value, same in value, sameness.

So you were claiming they were the same.

Glad you now recognise that any deal post brexit wont be the same or equivalent to our current deal but will be inferior.

Quote mine much?

This is semantics anyway lets move on.

I still think we'll end up with free trade deal and freedom of movement of labour, you?
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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jakswan

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #379 on: January 21, 2017, 10:54:40 AM »
But hey you can chose to live in your naive, simplistic world if you want. I chose to live in the real world.

I don't mind debating and discussing but I'm done with you. Sorry Davey I like being challenged but you continually going to this level has meant I have to end this.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #380 on: January 21, 2017, 11:24:16 AM »
I don't mind debating and discussing but I'm done with you. Sorry Davey I like being challenged but you continually going to this level has meant I have to end this.
Oh dear argument goes against you so you run away.

I'm sorry that you feel my comment was strong, but I make no apology for making the comment because it was absolutely reasonable. Let's focus on your claim - as a matter of certainty, not possibility:

'... once that is invoked [i.e. article 50] two years and we are out.'

You were implying that it is an absolute certainty that 2 years after a trigger of article 50 we will be out of the EU.

That is (as I have indicated) naive and simplistic. Sure it is possible that the UK will leave the EU 2 years (or less) after the trigger of article 50. But there are many, many other scenarios, which may mean a delay - allowed within the article 50 wording (due to protracted negotiations, all the way through to not leave as it hasn't actually been challenged legally yet to determine whether article 50 is irrevocable.

So it is naive and simplistic to ignore all those other plausible (indeed quite likely) issues which might mean trigger article 50, 2 years later out is very much not a certainty. And it is perfectly reasonable to call someone out as simplistic and naive who makes (as you did) a claim of such certainty when in the real world there is massive uncertainty - not least because there is no prior experience to fall back on, as no other country has left the EU.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #381 on: January 21, 2017, 11:28:40 AM »
Quote mine much?
How many times are you going to throw the accusation of quote mining at me, when it is entirely unjustified.

You made a claim of equivalence, you then claimed that you didn't suggest they would be the same - I simply made the point (perfectly in context) that you seemed to be arguing in different directions. You can't make a claim of equivalence and then deny claiming them to be the same.[/quote]

I still think we'll end up with free trade deal and freedom of movement of labour, you?
I wouldn't want to proffer a detailed view on the outcome, save to suggest that any deal we might strike will be inferior to the deal we already enjoy.

jakswan

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #382 on: January 21, 2017, 12:43:12 PM »
Oh dear argument goes against you so you run away.

No I don't really care about winning an argument I enjoy checking facts and learning new things, e.g. you were right about Ukraine, but I'm not really sure what we are debating anymore. Your last comment was I bit too much for me so I'm going wish you well and leave you to it.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #383 on: January 21, 2017, 12:55:59 PM »
No I don't really care about winning an argument I enjoy checking facts and learning new things, e.g. you were right about Ukraine, but I'm not really sure what we are debating anymore. Your last comment was I bit too much for me so I'm going wish you well and leave you to it.
In what way was it too much to accuse you of being naive and simplistic when you were claiming as certainty that the UK will have left the EU 2 years after triggering article 50, when it is completely clear that there are many other possible outcomes which might mean a delay beyond 2 years through to revoking the decision to leave. There is no certainty and therefore to suggest there is demonstrates naivety and simplicity of thought. Hence my comment.

jeremyp

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #384 on: January 21, 2017, 04:11:44 PM »
On our current course, we are not going to be part of any Free Trade Zone in Europe. We know what the EU's conditions are: free movement of labour. Without that, we are out in the cold.

The pledge in the Leave campaign's manifesto was either a lie (like the £350 million bus) or hopelessly naive.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #385 on: January 24, 2017, 10:20:43 AM »
Government loses in the Supreme Court

floo

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #386 on: January 24, 2017, 11:05:28 AM »
GOOD!

Rhiannon

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #387 on: January 24, 2017, 11:25:19 AM »
Is it likely to change anything? I doubt it.

Anyway, Brexiters should be delighted - the sovereign rule of the land is being upheld.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #388 on: January 24, 2017, 11:29:49 AM »
Is it likely to change anything? I doubt it.

Anyway, Brexiters should be delighted - the sovereign rule of the land is being upheld.
It will, of course, strengthen the hand of MPs and (crucially) Peers. Having said that Parliament must not only have a say but must be the ones who trigger article 50 it is going to be difficult to argue that they cannot have a role in shaping the nature of those negotiating positions post trigger.

Rhiannon

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #389 on: January 24, 2017, 11:48:39 AM »
It will, of course, strengthen the hand of MPs and (crucially) Peers. Having said that Parliament must not only have a say but must be the ones who trigger article 50 it is going to be difficult to argue that they cannot have a role in shaping the nature of those negotiating positions post trigger.

Yes, but it won't stop the trigger from happening and I think a few Remainers wished for that. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if a kind of Brexit Light is the result.

I only realised recently how sad I am that we are leaving the EU.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #390 on: January 24, 2017, 12:40:12 PM »
Yes, but it won't stop the trigger from happening and I think a few Remainers wished for that. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if a kind of Brexit Light is the result.

I only realised recently how sad I am that we are leaving the EU.
No it is unlikely to stop the trigger, but it may be delayed - getting an Act through Parliament in just a few weeks with proper scrutiny is tricky. And if it becomes apparent that parliament is being used merely as a rubber stamping process, then I think plenty of MPs, and particularly peers, will consider that the government is holding the judgement of the Supreme Court in contempt. So I wouldn't be surprised if Parliament expects to give very serious consideration to the bill, and in particular, through amendments, may look to impose safeguards on the negotiating position, which could come back to haunt if they aren't achieved in the negotiated deal when it comes back to parliament for final ratification.

Rhiannon

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #391 on: January 24, 2017, 12:45:50 PM »
Yes, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #392 on: January 24, 2017, 12:53:40 PM »
I can't say that I am sad, Rhi, I am angry.

I can conceive that a decision might have been made to withdraw from the EU that was made on rational, carefully argued grounds. But it wasn't. The decision was on the basis of distortions and emotion, and what might now be known as "alternative facts".

Many people I know voted to leave. When I ask why they voted to leave the reply I get is either related to immigrants taking jobs or being able to "make our own laws". But none of these people is able to give me the name of anyone who lost his or her job to an "immigrant" and no-one is able to give me details of any law that has been imposed on us.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #393 on: January 24, 2017, 01:11:36 PM »
HH, a friend of mine lives in the north of England and works as a truck driver. He works for an agency doing shit hours for shit pay. He had to take a pay cut when the agency started using Polish workers and both the Brits and Poles found their wages went down when the Romanians arrived. I've no doubt he's telling it as it is when he said that the agency boss told them that if they didn't like the new pay and conditions they could take a jump as there were plenty of migrant drivers to take their place.

I voted Remain but I can see why there was and is a group of people who felt that EU membership gave the green light for them to be shafted. The Remain campaign did nothing to explain the benefits of EU membership and focussed on a negative campaign of fear mongering.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #394 on: January 24, 2017, 02:33:28 PM »
I am sure that there are people who have lost their jobs to immigrants, but they will be far fewer than in the popular imagination. In the example you provide, Rhi, this is more a case of an unscrupulous employer than opportunist foreigners.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Being upbeat about Brexit.
« Reply #395 on: January 24, 2017, 04:14:24 PM »
I am sure that there are people who have lost their jobs to immigrants, but they will be far fewer than in the popular imagination. In the example you provide, Rhi, this is more a case of an unscrupulous employer than opportunist foreigners.

I think it would be ridiculous to blame migrant workers. There's a piece of research that shows that few jobs have been taken by migrant workers but that where there are high numbers wages for certain jobs are lower. That's born out where I live as I know barwork used to pay around £9-£10 per hour and now pays the minimum wage.

Employers will often want the cheapest labour and the highest margins. It's nice to think that they'll keep paying old rates but with a cheap, hard working workforce they aren't going to.