Farage planning move to the US according to Metro.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who can blame him?

[Brownie]

Good.

[jeremyp]

Good riddance. Now, all we need is for them to take back Piers Morgan.

[L.A.]

Maybe if all the other  f...ing Brexiteers would like to join him now they have buggered things up this side of the Atlantic

[jeremyp]

Maybe if all the other  f...ing Brexiteers would like to join him now they have buggered things up this side of the Atlantic

I wonder if there is a correlation between being as Brexiteer and supporting Trump. Maybe a poll...

[L.A.]

I wonder if there is a correlation between being as Brexiteer and supporting Trump. Maybe a poll...

It's tempting to say that it is something to do with IQ but I don't think it's quite so simple. Probably more to do with naivety.  Today there are an awful lot of people who are prepared to believe everything they read online - including apparently, those who control other media.

[Nearly Sane]

It's tempting to say that it is something to do with IQ but I don't think it's quite so simple. Probably more to do with naivety.  Today there are an awful lot of people who are prepared to believe everything they read online - including apparently, those who control other media.

I suspect that the biggest common factor will be age

[L.A.]

I suspect that the biggest common factor will be age

But the really stupid thing is that the young will probably live to see things eventually get better, or they can just emigrate - whereas the older generation will be stuck in this mess for the rest of their lives.

[Nearly Sane]

But the really stupid thing is that the young will probably live to see things eventually get better, or they can just emigrate - whereas the older generation will be stuck in this mess for the rest of their lives.

Emigration isn't always that easy, and it's not so clear where you emigrate to. One of the most shocking things in the detail of the IFS figures that generated the story below is that earnings for 22-30 year olds are down 7%, but for pensioners, in part because of the triple lock, are up 11%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38090977

[floo]

Who can blame him?

If that is so, good riddance to bad rubbish!

[ProfessorDavey]

But the really stupid thing is that the young will probably live to see things eventually get better, or they can just emigrate - whereas the older generation will be stuck in this mess for the rest of their lives.

Sorry LA, firstly as others have pointed out the elderly have been well protected by this government - they are the baby boomers who ended up with pensions that the rest of us can only dream of. The over 65s aren't being disproportionately hit by the problems, quite the reverse.

And secondly, let's not forget that certainly in terms of Brexit it is the elderly who created the problem. They voted disproportionately for leave - they have f*cked everything up for decades and created real problems for those just starting out on their lives/careers. And in an even broader sense we wouldn't have had the 2010 or 2015 election results we did without the elderly voting Tory in big numbers. Imagine a world in which the 2010 election was won by a progressive coalition of Labour/LibDem (and perhaps SNP), investment rather than austerity, the economy improving rather than flat-lining, Cameron out on his ear - no chance to gamble the future of the country on a Brexit vote as a sop to his right wing.

The alternative history is rather more appealing I'm afraid - shame it aint true.

[L.A.]

Emigration isn't always that easy, and it's not so clear where you emigrate to. One of the most shocking things in the detail of the IFS figures that generated the story below is that earnings for 22-30 year olds are down 7%, but for pensioners, in part because of the triple lock, are up 11%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38090977

There are always options open to the young if only they realised it. If a young person has the right skills/qualifications the world is their oyster.

[L.A.]

Sorry LA, firstly as others have pointed out the elderly have been well protected by this government - they are the baby boomers who ended up with pensions that the rest of us can only dream of. The over 65s aren't being disproportionately hit by the problems, quite the reverse.

And secondly, let's not forget that certainly in terms of Brexit it is the elderly who created the problem. They voted disproportionately for leave - they have f*cked everything up for decades and created real problems for those just starting out on their lives/careers. And in an even broader sense we wouldn't have had the 2010 or 2015 election results we did without the elderly voting Tory in big numbers. Imagine a world in which the 2010 election was won by a progressive coalition of Labour/LibDem (and perhaps SNP), investment rather than austerity, the economy improving rather than flat-lining, Cameron out on his ear - no chance to gamble the future of the country on a Brexit vote as a sop to his right wing.

The alliterative history is rather more appealing I'm afraid - shame it aint true.

I'm not saying that the old aren't currently well protected from the problems (though the government seems to be signalling that this might change).

The point I was making was that it is only the young who might live though the crisis and eventually see better times, and also have the energy and resilience to make a go of it in a new country.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm not saying that the old aren't currently well protected from the problems (though the government seems to be signalling that this might change).

The point I was making was that it is only the young who might live though the crisis and eventually see better times, and also have the energy and resilience to make a go of it in a new country.

I love the flippant way the term crisis is casually thrown in. The crisis isn't something that happened outside of our control. This is a perfectly home grown crisis and the architects of that crisis, so to say, are the older generations who voted for leave - the younger generations overwhelming voted to remain. The younger generation will have to sort out the mess created for them by their grandparents, who in many cases will be completely cushioned from any negative effects.

The young shouldn't have to 'live through this crisis'.

[Harrowby Hall]

And secondly, let's not forget that certainly in terms of Brexit it is the elderly who created the problem. They voted disproportionately for leave - they have f*cked everything up for decades and created real problems for those just starting out on their lives/careers.

I suppose you could say that I am one of this group. But having been born in wartime I don't qualify as being a baby boomer.

I voted to remain. (Does that make me a traitor to my age group?)

For me, the REAL tragedy of this situation is that by the time the real problems of Brexit take hold, many of the people who voted for it will be DEAD. Their short sighted, ignorant, ill-informed, self-indulgent little moment of idiocy will be their bequest to their children and their children's children.

[ProfessorDavey]

I suppose you could say that I am one of this group. But having been in wartime I don't qualify as being a baby boomer.

I voted to remain. (Does that make me a traitor to my age group?)

For me, the REAL tragedy of this situation is that by the time the real problems of Brexit take hold, many of the people who voted for it will be dead. Their short sighted, ignorant, ill-informed, self-indulgent little moment of idiocy will be their bequest to their children and their children's children.

I fully understand I am talking in generalised terms, and of course there are plenty of elderly people who voted remain - but the point is that disproportionately that age group voted leave and their votes were decisive in such a close result.

And your point about many of those voting being dead creates a real democratic issue - the vote to leave won't actually be enacted until 2019 at the very earliest (I suspect it will take several years longer) - by then quite a lot of the elderly 2016 leave voters will be dead, and a further group of current 15-17 year olds will be able to vote. SO even if none of those who actually voted in 2016 change their vote at all it is quite probably that the result would go the other way at the point of leaving, as the disproportionately leave elderly are replaced by disproportionately remain new voters.

I can't think of any other democratic example where there is such a gap between a vote and enacting its decision - in a general election you get a new government in a couple of days, the devolution votes produced assembles and parliament voted in place within 18 months.

And what this leads to is a strong argument for a second referendum at the point when there is a clear deal that can (if the vote is in favour) be enacted rapidly so is clearly the will of the people. I see today that John Major is now putting his weight behind calls for such a referendum.

[L.A.]

I love the flippant way the term crisis is casually thrown in. The crisis isn't something that happened outside of our control. This is a perfectly home grown crisis and the architects of that crisis, so to say, are the older generations who voted for leave - the younger generations overwhelming voted to remain. The younger generation will have to sort out the mess created for them by their grandparents, who in many cases will be completely cushioned from any negative effects.

The young shouldn't have to 'live through this crisis'.

I thoroughly agree, I'm not passing moral judgement, but we are where we are. The young do at least have the possibility of making a better life elsewhere. I suspect that Ireland might eventually be one of the beneficiaries and Canada are always on the lookout for the right people.

[Gordon]

I suppose you could say that I am one of this group. But having been born in wartime I don't qualify as being a baby boomer.

I voted to remain. (Does that make me a traitor to my age group?)

For me, the REAL tragedy of this situation is that by the time the real problems of Brexit take hold, many of the people who voted for it will be DEAD. Their short sighted, ignorant, ill-informed, self-indulgent little moment of idiocy will be their bequest to their children and their children's children.

I'm slightly younger than you HH and I agree with your take on this.

My hope is that via democratic means this disaster might yet be averted: surely most can now see that the keys to the car have been handed to a bunch of right-wing diehards who don't know where they are going (or even how to drive the car).

[Gordon]

It was interesting to note the recent reports that senior Tories are urging that the Article 50 court case is dropped in that there is a risk that, according to  the reports, the devolved administrations could veto the process: if so, I've no doubt our FM would feel she had a mandate to so so.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/19/scrap-article-50-court-appeal-senior-tories-urge-may

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38034411

While this was ruled out in the immediate aftermath of the referendum perhaps, bearing in mind that the case has gone to appeal, that the fat lady has yet to shown any signs of starting to sing perhaps there is yet hope that this disaster can be averted.

[Udayana]

er... isn't it those that are now "old" who voted in Heath with a mandate to join the EEC, and voted to stay in in '75 ?

By the time we leave, everyone will be even older .. presumably no "remainers" will be left!

[ProfessorDavey]

er... isn't it those that are now "old" who voted in Heath with a mandate to join the EEC, and voted to stay in in '75 ?

By the time we leave, everyone will be even older .. presumably no "remainers" will be left!

On the contrary - a load of the leavers (disproportionately the elderly) will have popped their clogs, while a load of younger people will have attained voting age and are disproportionately likely to support remaining.

[Walter]

On the contrary - a load of the leavers (disproportionately the elderly) will have popped their clogs, while a load of younger people will have attained voting age and are disproportionately likely to support remaining.

well how interesting

a whole thread on confirmation bias . The crisis only exists in your collective bigoted minds. get over  your fucking selves.

[ProfessorDavey]

well how interesting

a whole thread on confirmation bias . The crisis only exists in your collective bigoted minds. get over  your fucking selves.

Your level of denial is staggering.

All you need to do is compare the outlook provided in last week's Autumn statement with that just 6 months earlier in the budget. A huge downturn in projections meaning we will need to borrow £60billion more because of Brexit and even then the earlier plan to balance the budget by 2020 has been shelved indefinitely.

We face a very, very deep economic and political crisis over the next few years. And that is entirely self generated and completely avoidable.

And you aren't going to win any arguments by swearing at those who don't agree with yourself and listen to those who actually know what they are talking about rather than living in a bizarre Pollyanna-ish fantasy world that everything is 'just fine'. It isn't, accept it, take some responsibility for your own actions.

[Anchorman]

He's moving? Great! Can he take the UKIPPERS and half the Tories with him, please?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I suppose you could say that I am one of this group. But having been born in wartime I don't qualify as being a baby boomer.

I voted to remain. (Does that make me a traitor to my age group?)

For me, the REAL tragedy of this situation is that by the time the real problems of Brexit take hold, many of the people who voted for it will be DEAD. Their short sighted, ignorant, ill-informed, self-indulgent little moment of idiocy will be their bequest to their children and their children's children.

or as Sean Lock put it , they didn't fight in a war, they enjoyed the welfare system and all they have to show is a great steaming turd on the doorstep of history.