Author Topic: Spontaneous healing  (Read 13115 times)

john

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Spontaneous healing
« on: November 25, 2016, 12:09:15 PM »
Mr Hope

Posted this on another topic.

The most well-known one is so-called 'spontaneous healing' when used in the context of medical science and its inability to explain why some condition reverses or simply disappears with no logical explanation.  This is most dramatic when all known physical attributes have been exhausted - either within the sufferer or from the side of medical science.  Or what about situations where all scientific evidence points to a certain outcome, such as death following a massive crash in a car, and yet the person/people step out of the mangled wreck with minimal injury.  The fact that they are 'non-natural' in nature means that classifying them in the 'natural' way becomes difficult, perhaps even impossible because they don't match natural categories.

He often claims that his religion is able to heal or cure some people and has been taken up on it many times. He maintains that his claim is no more suspect that "spontaneous healing" is.

Okay lets go with Hope's claim; God/prayer/religion can cure/heal.

On what basis are some healed and others not. Young children, not yet capable of speech and independent movement and therefore unlikely to have sinned in anyway, are dying throughout the world of terrible diseases, starvation and even ill treatment. Some, Hope might claim are saved by divine intervention. The overwhelming majority are not and die in agony.

If God can save some why does he not save all? What faith can there be in a God so capricious, selective and deaf to the suffering of innocents?
"Try again. Fail again. Fail Better". Samuel Beckett

floo

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2016, 12:14:29 PM »
If God can save some why does he not save all? What faith can there be in a God so capricious, selective and deaf to the suffering of innocents?



A question I have asked on many occasions!

Anchorman

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2016, 01:20:33 PM »
Who says God can't save all?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

2Corrie

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2016, 01:23:50 PM »
Not to be picky, but your question OP seems to conflate healing with salvation; I think there are two questions here: why suffering, and why does God not save everyone.
"It is finished."

floo

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2016, 01:42:24 PM »
Not to be picky, but your question OP seems to conflate healing with salvation; I think there are two questions here: why suffering, and why does God not save everyone.

Because god is a psycho if it exists!

Walter

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2016, 01:52:08 PM »
Not to be picky, but your question OP seems to conflate healing with salvation; I think there are two questions here: why suffering, and why does God not save everyone.
you are going to have to point out the conflation to me because I cant find it

Enki

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2016, 02:38:53 PM »
Who says God can't save all?

No one on this thread so far. However, the question still remains, if your God, by intervening, is able to save some people, why doesn't he intervene to save all?
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Steven Wright

Anchorman

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2016, 06:19:27 PM »
No one on this thread so far. However, the question still remains, if your God, by intervening, is able to save some people, why doesn't he intervene to save all?


In reply #1. floo made a statement.
My question to her was to see if she could, by some remote chance, back it up with evidence from Scripture.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Enki

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2016, 11:03:04 PM »

In reply #1. floo made a statement.
My question to her was to see if she could, by some remote chance, back it up with evidence from Scripture.

Hi Anchorman,

Actually she simply repeated the two questions from the OP. The only statement that I can see is that she says that she has asked this question(actually two questions) before.

The first one, which assumes a Christian God, seems to be quite a reasonable question? I certainly have no answer to it, but there again I'm not a Christian.

The second question includes the assumption that 'God is capricious, selective and deaf to the suffering of innocents' such that she questions those who can have faith in such a God? I think you are now on somewhat more solid ground in asking her for the scriptural evidence to support the assumptions here, rather than simply asking 'Who says God can't save all?' when nobody has done that.

That's all. :)

Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Sriram

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2016, 05:49:43 AM »

Actually spontaneously healing is connected to our inner Consciousness and to our biofield. We can, under certain circumstances, activate the inner Self and generate certain types of energies that can cure illnesses spontaneously. 

Illness according to most spiritual philosophies, is nothing but accumulation of negative energy in certain parts of the system. 'Karma' in other words. If this is corrected through internal processes, diseases can be cured 'miraculously'.  Obviously, people with greater spiritual maturity will be able to do it more easily.

It has nothing to do with God or his whims.  It is an internal process involving systems that science is yet to understand.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 06:22:57 AM by Sriram »

floo

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2016, 08:30:41 AM »

In reply #1. floo made a statement.
My question to her was to see if she could, by some remote chance, back it up with evidence from Scripture.

That wasn't my statement, I just said I too had asked that question!

Anchorman

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2016, 09:52:23 AM »
And my answer is that God is perfectly capable of saving everyone. Not everyone wants to be saved, though.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

floo

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2016, 10:38:21 AM »
And my answer is that God is perfectly capable of saving everyone. Not everyone wants to be saved, though.

What do we need saving from?

Enki

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2016, 11:14:10 AM »
And my answer is that God is perfectly capable of saving everyone. Not everyone wants to be saved, though.

Anchorman,

Which of course is no answer to the question posed in the OP of a thread labelled 'Spontaneous healing', where John is talking about your God intervening to physically heal and cure people. It is in this sense that he means 'saved', surely. E.g. He says:

Quote
Some, Hope might claim are saved by divine intervention. The overwhelming majority are not and die in agony.

I cannot think that your answer that 'not everyone wants to be saved, though' has any bearing at all on those, including young children, who suffer and die, as John says, of 'terrible diseases, starvation and even ill treatment'.

So the question remains: if God is able to intervene directly to alleviate suffering for some. why not for all?
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Anchorman

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2016, 02:07:44 PM »
There;s salvation and there's saving from pain. The former is offered to everyone. The latter may not be. Sometimes, likre Paul, we may have to endure pain  and suffering. No-one wants that - and after thirty -odd years of constant pain, I know I don't. However, that's not what is meant by 'being saved'. 
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

floo

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2016, 02:47:07 PM »
There;s salvation and there's saving from pain. The former is offered to everyone. The latter may not be. Sometimes, likre Paul, we may have to endure pain  and suffering. No-one wants that - and after thirty -odd years of constant pain, I know I don't. However, that's not what is meant by 'being saved'.

Salvation from what?

Enki

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2016, 03:16:00 PM »
There;s salvation and there's saving from pain. The former is offered to everyone. The latter may not be. Sometimes, likre Paul, we may have to endure pain  and suffering. No-one wants that - and after thirty -odd years of constant pain, I know I don't. However, that's not what is meant by 'being saved'.

Again I am puzzled as to why you do not offer any sort of answer to what was asked. Simply to describe the fact that many people are forced to endure pain and suffering is no answer to the question:

If God is able to intervene directly to alleviate suffering for some, why not for all?
 
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Hope

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2016, 07:47:57 PM »
On what basis are some healed and others not. Young children, not yet capable of speech and independent movement and therefore unlikely to have sinned in anyway, are dying throughout the world of terrible diseases, starvation and even ill treatment. Some, Hope might claim are saved by divine intervention. The overwhelming majority are not and die in agony.
OK, john, on what basis are some healed and some not by modern western medicine?

But to answer at least some of your questions, let's take the situation that Japan faced hours, days and months after the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Are you saying that God should have saved all and every man, woman and child affected  by those events?  Or what about the children who die in their infancy as a result of a lack of clean water?  Should God be healing each and every one of those?

Let's look at at least some of the background (and perhaps even foreground) to these two examples.

If God was to have healed each and every person killed and wounded as a result of the 2 A-bombs, would humanity have understood the horror of such things and - ever since - sought to avoid their use again (note the outcry when depleted uranium is used in military shells and bombs)?  Why do many young children die as a result of a lack of clean water?  Corruption, greed and selfishness are but three reasons.  Were God to ensure that no-one died as a result of a lack of clean water, would people pay attention to combating such corruption and greed?  Are there to be no consequences that effect third-parties from such human failings?

And then, what about those children who die in the womb, in developing countries, but saved in the West, to live out lives of pain, inability and perhaps even rejection?  Are you happy with such situations? Many of these in-utero deaths are the result of nature deciding that this or that child is, realistically, nonviable as a human being.

Quote
If God can save some why does he not save all? What faith can there be in a God so capricious, selective and deaf to the suffering of innocents?
A faith in the humanity that, often, actually cause the circumstances that lead to such suffering.  Or are you suggesting that humanity, as a whole, doesn't have a huge responsibility for its own suffering?
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Hope

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2016, 07:48:44 PM »
If God can save some why does he not save all? What faith can there be in a God so capricious, selective and deaf to the suffering of innocents?



A question I have asked on many occasions!
And had answers to on equally 'many occasions', Floo.
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Hope

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2016, 07:58:22 PM »
Actually spontaneously healing is connected to our inner Consciousness and to our biofield. We can, under certain circumstances, activate the inner Self and generate certain types of energies that can cure illnesses spontaneously. 

Illness according to most spiritual philosophies, is nothing but accumulation of negative energy in certain parts of the system. 'Karma' in other words. If this is corrected through internal processes, diseases can be cured 'miraculously'.  Obviously, people with greater spiritual maturity will be able to do it more easily.

It has nothing to do with God or his whims.  It is an internal process involving systems that science is yet to understand.
Unfortunately, Sri, the term 'spontanteous healing' is often applied to recovery from a condition or illness that has been going on for a very long time, and that Western medicine with all its experts has been unable to find a cure for.  It has nothing to do with our inner consciousness (whatever that term might mean) since there are occasions when the person concerned has given up all hope themselves and accepted that they will die. 

I think the problem lies with your definition of illness - something where we as individuals have no say in what happens to us - aka fatalism.  I am aware that this way of thinking is in-built into languages such as Hindi and Nepali - and other sub-continent languages - whereas it isn't in=built into others - such as English or other European languages.  Not sure about African and languages from other continents or eras such as Maori or Australian Aborigine, Mayan, Inca, etc.
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Hope

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2016, 08:06:10 PM »
Anchorman,

Which of course is no answer to the question posed in the OP of a thread labelled 'Spontaneous healing', where John is talking about your God intervening to physically heal and cure people. It is in this sense that he means 'saved', surely. E.g. He says:

I cannot think that your answer that 'not everyone wants to be saved, though' has any bearing at all on those, including young children, who suffer and die, as John says, of 'terrible diseases, starvation and even ill treatment'.

So the question remains: if God is able to intervene directly to alleviate suffering for some. why not for all?
enki, I think that john's juxtpositioning of the words 'healing' and 'saving' points to a confusion, especially when he places the thread on the Christian board - since divine healing isn't a uniquely Christian concept.  Having said that, there are those who don't want to be healed, either by medical science or religion.  I can think of some who have a full and round life who - regardless of their age - are happy to die; my mother lost her husband in 1982 and lived a full life till about 2006.  Following a number of niggly illnesses and pains - colds, joint problems, etc, she effectively 'gave up the ghost'.  She actually told me the night before she died that she was ready to die.
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Brownie

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2016, 09:02:31 PM »
Yes, life isn't everything.  Sometimes people have just had enough.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2016, 11:25:29 PM »


If God can save some why does he not save all? What faith can there be in a God so capricious, selective and deaf to the suffering of innocents?

Because God wants us to learn.




Nearly Sane

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2016, 02:37:23 AM »
Because God wants us to learn.


Learn what?  That a child dying in pain is what he wants?

floo

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Re: Spontaneous healing
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2016, 08:23:02 AM »
Because God wants us to learn.

Learn what, it enjoys watching humans suffer?