Spontaneous healing

[Brownie]

Nor is atheism the prerogative of the intelligent - despite what some here would like to believe.

No, it works both ways.

[john]

Mr Hope

Clearly you are not unintelligent and are capable of understanding the question being asked.

Why so much evasion? Just try to answer the question please.

Have you not claimed here on many occasions that you KNOW of people who have been cured by religious intervention?

The explain yourself, how does God decide who to save and who to ignore and why?

It is a very very simple question which so far you have made no attempt at all to address.

[Hope]

Mr Hope

Clearly you are not unintelligent and are capable of understanding the question being asked.

Why so much evasion? Just try to answer the question please.

Have you not claimed here on many occasions that you KNOW of people who have been cured by religious intervention?

The explain yourself, how does God decide who to save and who to ignore and why?

It is a very very simple question which so far you have made no attempt at all to address.

I have answered the question, and sadly, it isn't as simple as you like to make out.  As I've pointed out, there are a huge number of conditions that impact on all forms of healing - be that divine or scientific.  The fact that you have to have this spelled out so often is a tad worrying.

[Gordon]

I have answered the question, and sadly, it isn't as simple as you like to make out.  As I've pointed out, there are a huge number of conditions that impact on all forms of healing - be that divine or scientific.  The fact that you have to have this spelled out so often is a tad worrying.

The evidence for 'divine' healing is what, exactly?

[Gordon]

No, it works both ways.

I agree - but in Hope's earlier posts he did express surprise that intelligent people weren't attracted to Christianity, noting that some in his church were lawyers etc, but he hasn't seemingly considered that others who are also intelligent and belong to these professional groups aren't Christian.

On that basis I'm  surprised he raised the issue of intelligence in this way.

[Hope]

I agree - but in Hope's earlier posts he did express surprise that intelligent people weren't attracted to Christianity, noting that some in his church were lawyers etc, but he hasn't seemingly considered that others who are also intelligent and belong to these professional groups aren't Christian.

Yet again, I didn't in any way "express surprise that intelligent people weren't attracted to Christianity" in my earlier posts on this thread (I only made that comment in my last post here).  What I did point out was that, contrary to the views of some here, there are those for whom their faith is a result of intellectual consideration.  As an example, I noted that we have lawyers, doctors, scientists and teachers (to name but a few professions) amongst the membership of our church.

On that basis I'm  surprised he raised the issue of intelligence in this way.

Except that I didn't 'raise the issue of intelligence in this way'.  I simply responded to posts that had done that.

[Hope]

The evidence for 'divine' healing is what, exactly?

Much the same as for other forms of healing, Gordon.  After all, do you have any definitive evidence that drug C heals disease Y, or is it simply a belief that it does which comes from personal or reported experience?

[Gordon]

Much the same as for other forms of healing, Gordon.

The question was 'The evidence for 'divine' healing is what, exactly?' - it seems you've forgotten to include the evidence. 

After all, do you have any definitive evidence that drug C heals disease Y, or is it simply a belief that it does which comes from personal or reported experience?

Your observation is naively simplistic - but I'm on familiar territory here since back in the day I was involved in several drug trials. These trials do often include the accounts of people taking the 'drugs' (e.g. of claimed side-effects), and of course they had no idea whether or not they taking the active preparation, and neither did the research team dealing directly with them. Double-blind trials are like that, and involve a strict research protocol: drugs don't get approved on the basis of personal experience alone, and then there is the chemistry involved in the mode of action.

So, do you have an equivalent method for 'divine' healing: one that involves more than just anecdote?
 

[Hope]

The question was 'The evidence for 'divine' healing is what, exactly?' - it seems you've forgotten to include the evidence. 

No, I simply pointed out that is was the same as for 'scientific' healing - or are you saying that there is no evidence for that?

Your observation is naively simplistic - but I'm on familiar territory here since back in the day I was involved in several drug trials. These trials do often include the accounts of people taking the 'drugs' (e.g. of claimed side-effects), and of course they had no idea whether or not they taking the active preparation, and neither did the research team dealing directly with them. Double-blind trials are like that, and involve a strict research protocol: drugs don't get approved on the basis of personal experience alone, and then there is the chemistry involved in the mode of action.

So, you acknowledge that the only evidence for 'scientific' healing is by observation. 

So, do you have an equivalent method for 'divine' healing: one that involves more than just anecdote?

I get the impression that you have a serious case of double standards here, Gordon.  You can't provide anything other than observation for your preferred form of healing, but won't accept it for any other form.

[Gordon]

Except that I didn't 'raise the issue of intelligence in this way'.  I simply responded to posts that had done that.

In doing so your responses included your own take on intelligence though:

From #33

It is also one of the things that makes intelligent people turn to Christianity, and away from atheism.

From #40

And I know of quite a few intelligent people who grew up as atheists and became believers when they began to seriously question atheism, Floo.  We have several in our church membership, who are lawyers, medics, teachers or scientists.

[Hope]

In doing so your responses included your own take on intelligence though:

So, I'm not allowed to refer to the concept when others are?  Anyone heard of double standards?

[Gordon]

No, I simply pointed out that is was the same as for 'scientific' healing - or are you saying that there is no evidence for that?

I'll ignore the straw-man (which is a fallacy you know) - so do you have evidence for 'divine' healing that has been obtained using a method similar to that used in drug trials?

My guess is that you'll evade again.

So, you acknowledge that the only evidence for 'scientific' healing is by observation

Don't be daft: read my post again, for comprehension this time - there are clues there, but you haven't understood them.

I get the impression that you have a serious case of double standards here, Gordon.  You can't provide anything other than observation for your preferred form of healing, but won't accept it for any other form.

Utter drivel, and a misrepresentation of what I said. In #56 you say the following, quoted below, which just betrays your lack of knowledge and relevant experience, hence I pointed out that drugs trials aren't quite so simplistic as you imagine them to be.

After all, do you have any definitive evidence that drug C heals disease Y, or is it simply a belief that it does which comes from personal or reported experience?

So the fundamental issue here, and you've been exposed on this before, is that you really don't have a clue about either research methods or medicine in general, as is blindingly obvious to someone like me who spent a large chunk of their career doing both.

[Gordon]

So, I'm not allowed to refer to the concept when others are?  Anyone heard of double standards?

Not double standards at all: you set out your own take on intelligence, as quoted earlier, and I responded to what you said.

That is, generally speaking, how this place works.

[john]

Mr Hope

Your total failure to respond to this simple question in any way at all, means that you are not worth listening to.

You are clearly deluded and worse still prepared to deceive others.

[floo]

Much the same as for other forms of healing, Gordon.  After all, do you have any definitive evidence that drug C heals disease Y, or is it simply a belief that it does which comes from personal or reported experience?

Hope your responses beggar belief.

[ippy]

From the things you have mentioned in your posts on the forum, it appears that you are quite worldly and reasonably well educated; what happened!

ippy

[Spud]

Young children, not yet capable of speech and independent movement and therefore unlikely to have sinned in anyway

If your argument rests on this assumption, then the answer is that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, whatever age.

[floo]

If your argument rests on this assumption, then the answer is that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, whatever age.

Which is stupid nonsense!

[Sassy]

Mr Hope


If God can save some why does he not save all? What faith can there be in a God so capricious, selective and deaf to the suffering of innocents?

Mr John,

“My people perish for a lack of knowledge.”

If, people believe GOD they would learn his words and then become like Christ and do what he did.

[ippy]

If your argument rests on this assumption, then the answer is that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, whatever age.

Spud I'm so glad I brought up my children away from the likes of people that take your view on life, the only way anyone could come up with a statement like this one of yours #66, has to be indoctrinated, probably at a very young age, into this line of non-thought.

Go back to your post 66 have another read and try to think for yourself instead of quoting indoctrinated dogma, Floo summed it up rather well as stupid nonsense, I very much agree with her, thank goodness people like you are on the decline.

If you think my post is offensive, have a really good look and think about that stupid posting of yours.

ippy

   

[floo]

Mr John,

“My people perish for a lack of knowledge.”

If, people believe GOD they would learn his words and then become like Christ and do what he did.

I like you? 

[Sassy]

Why doesn't God save all?

Jesus died to save all... this shows God wants all to be saved.

God can intervene more in the lives of those who have give their lives to him through Christ than those who reject him.
Like a doctor can intervene and do more with a patient willing to accept treatment and one who cannot.

Sometimes atheists are left to their own devices they put their trust in medicine but forget God.

If you had to trust in medicine or God which would you trust?

The believer has the benefit of both.. But it is a choice. Do you as an atheist call on God?

I heard someone on tv the other day say they were driving somewhere and they came around a corner and there was suddenly cattle in front of them. They cried out to God and suddenly they were on the other side without harm.

You all make the decision of what and whom you trust in...

[Walter]

Why doesn't God save all?

Jesus died to save all... this shows God wants all to be saved.

God can intervene more in the lives of those who have give their lives to him through Christ than those who reject him.
Like a doctor can intervene and do more with a patient willing to accept treatment and one who cannot.

Sometimes atheists are left to their own devices they put their trust in medicine but forget God.

If you had to trust in medicine or God which would you trust?

The believer has the benefit of both.. But it is a choice. Do you as an atheist call on God?

I heard someone on tv the other day say they were driving somewhere and they came around a corner and there was suddenly cattle in front of them. They cried out to God and suddenly they were on the other side without harm.

You all make the decision of what and whom you trust in...

you should take out a law suit of negligence against your god for not giving you the power of reason .

[Sebastian Toe]

If you had to trust in medicine or God which would you trust?

The believer has the benefit of both..

...but which do you trust more?

[Enki]

Why doesn't God save all?

Jesus died to save all... this shows God wants all to be saved.

God can intervene more in the lives of those who have give their lives to him through Christ than those who reject him.
Like a doctor can intervene and do more with a patient willing to accept treatment and one who cannot.

Sometimes atheists are left to their own devices they put their trust in medicine but forget God.

If you had to trust in medicine or God which would you trust?

The believer has the benefit of both.. But it is a choice. Do you as an atheist call on God?

I heard someone on tv the other day say they were driving somewhere and they came around a corner and there was suddenly cattle in front of them. They cried out to God and suddenly they were on the other side without harm.

You all make the decision of what and whom you trust in...

I'm reminded of a certain Daniel Miller who was trapped recently in a mud hole in Australia for several hours with only his nose and forehead above the surface. By using his mental faculties and a huge dose of luck, he managed to survive until he was rescued. When interviewed afterwards, he was asked if he had prayed, and he answered that he hadn't because it hadn't crossed his mind. He had focused on his wife and children, and  used a yoga position which, he suggested, helped save his life.