Author Topic: Karma  (Read 95585 times)

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Karma
« Reply #975 on: December 16, 2016, 01:19:02 PM »
No it's not likewise.  There is indirect hard evidence for some undiscovered phenomena that we provisionally label DE and DM.  There is nonesuch for spirits/souls, all they are is a fanciful unfalsifiable interpretation.  At best, all you have is anecdotal claims of patients experiencing curious cerebral episodes and that is easily explainable as aberrant phenomenology of mind.
He had already judged my NDE before I had finished talking about it, so I gave up.

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Karma
« Reply #976 on: December 16, 2016, 01:49:09 PM »

It is not necessary to know all these details just to know that such a thing as soul/spirit exists. Do scientists know all these details about Dark Matter or Dark Energy? 

As you say...it is very unlikely to convince those who are skeptical.  It is a mindset problem.

No one said that it is necessary to know all these details, but you do need some evidence to go on, or else the idea of a soul/spirit simply remains a conjecture.

Torri has responded to your idea that dark matter and dark energy are similar to the idea of a soul in this respect. I agree with him. The difference is that both the above have indirect evidence, and the words dark matter and dark energy  are simply place holders until we know more, whereas the idea of a soul(even used as place holder) is mere conjecture without any evidence to show that it exists at all.

I don't intend getting into the subject of NDEs and OBEs, as we have discussed this subject in detail before.

However I do agree with your last sentence. Indeed it does seem to be a mindset problem. I take the view, expressed in a book I have read recently(Reality Is Not What It Seems):

Quote
It is the awareness of our ignorance that gives science its reliability.
And it is reliability that we need, not certainty. We don't have absolute certainty, and we never will have it - unless we accept blind belief. The most credible answers are the ones given by science, because science is the search for the most credible answers available, not for answers pretending to be certainty.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Karma
« Reply #977 on: December 16, 2016, 02:52:54 PM »
Being flippant doesn't address the issue.

But you ignored the serious point, that corpses provide us with perfect evidence for brain-free experiences.   Of course, it's possible that corpses are having experiences, but they are not showing any signs of brain activity.   Maybe we should keep them propped up in front of the TV, for their favourite soap?

Presumably, the advocates of a separate soul will say that it has detached from the body, and flown elsewhere?   Good old Descartes. 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 02:58:01 PM by wigginhall »
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
Re: Karma
« Reply #978 on: December 16, 2016, 02:59:35 PM »

.............We don't have absolute certainty, and we never will have it


Is he absolutely certain about that?  ;)

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Karma
« Reply #979 on: December 16, 2016, 03:22:56 PM »

Quote
Quote from: enki on Today at 01:49:09 PM

    .............We don't have absolute certainty, and we never will have it

Is he absolutely certain about that?  ;)

I do have absolute certainty that there is something which perceives and controls my thoughts, and I am absolutely certain that science has not been able to define what this something is, or how it does it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Karma
« Reply #980 on: December 16, 2016, 03:25:39 PM »
No it's not likewise.  There is indirect hard evidence for some undiscovered phenomena that we provisionally label DE and DM.  There is nonesuch for spirits/souls, all they are is a fanciful unfalsifiable interpretation.  At best, all you have is anecdotal claims of patients experiencing curious cerebral episodes and that is easily explainable as aberrant phenomenology of mind.

Surely, the other point about dark matter is that scientists are looking for signatures from it.   This is what happened with the Big Bang, and signatures were found, and before that, with Einsteinian relativity.   

Well, as far as I know, there are no research teams looking for signatures from soul/spirit.   I have never heard of any, but I am willing to be informed.  Of course, it's problematic, if s/s are reckoned to be non-material.   
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Karma
« Reply #981 on: December 16, 2016, 03:27:19 PM »
I do have absolute certainty that there is something which perceives and controls my thoughts, and I am absolutely certain that science has not been able to define what this something is, or how it does it.

It's remarkable that you seem to see your certainty as a virtue, whereas others may see it as a hindrance.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Karma
« Reply #982 on: December 16, 2016, 03:34:46 PM »
It's remarkable that you seem to see your certainty as a virtue, whereas others may see it as a hindrance.
hindrance?, Illness more like.

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Karma
« Reply #983 on: December 16, 2016, 03:54:28 PM »
No one said that it is necessary to know all these details, but you do need some evidence to go on, or else the idea of a soul/spirit simply remains a conjecture.

Torri has responded to your idea that dark matter and dark energy are similar to the idea of a soul in this respect. I agree with him. The difference is that both the above have indirect evidence, and the words dark matter and dark energy  are simply place holders until we know more, whereas the idea of a soul(even used as place holder) is mere conjecture without any evidence to show that it exists at all.

I don't intend getting into the subject of NDEs and OBEs, as we have discussed this subject in detail before.

However I do agree with your last sentence. Indeed it does seem to be a mindset problem. I take the view, expressed in a book I have read recently(Reality Is Not What It Seems):


How do you think Science with its 19/20 Century methodologies (I don't mean technologies), will be up to the task of investigating such exotic phenomena as Parallel Universes, String Theory, Non-local influence, Consciousness participating in the evolution of the universe, Consciousness being independent of our bodies and so on...?!

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Karma
« Reply #984 on: December 16, 2016, 03:56:13 PM »
I am absolutely certain that science has not been able to define what this something is, or how it does it.
...and you can?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Karma
« Reply #985 on: December 16, 2016, 04:07:14 PM »
...and you can?
Ah, well, that'll be the day, won't it?!!  :)
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Karma
« Reply #986 on: December 16, 2016, 04:16:01 PM »
Neural correlates could be just correlation, not causation then.  Is this correlation just a coincidence then ?
It is undeniable that the brain is part of the system but that does not mean that it is responsible for all the phenomena that are associated with that system. If I remove a component from my TV it may not then work, but that does not mean that that component is responsible for say the picture or colour or something it may be just an auxiliary part that functions to provide some more fundamental, basic role in a general way to the system. Jumping to conclusions just because one sees some cursory link is not prudent to fully understand the reasons for things.

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Karma
« Reply #987 on: December 16, 2016, 04:29:52 PM »
How would you know that until you try?
Because truly understanding what consciousness is comes from personal experience (i.e. it is ineffable) and as you lot hold the super-ant perspective on this it is quite obvious that you lot are in denial, caused by your brainwashing of your western education.

In other words, all I could do is give you a technical, erudite, semantic verbiage which would be as good as farting in the wind. Unless those technical words were pinned up by your personal experience and wisdom they are worthless. You understand and grasp words by how you live them. Words are meaningless unless they are grounded in a persons life. That's why I say, "Words are just shadows of the true form."

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Karma
« Reply #988 on: December 16, 2016, 04:38:35 PM »
Because truly understanding what consciousness is comes from personal experience (i.e. it is ineffable) and as you lot hold the super-ant perspective on this it is quite obvious that you lot are in denial, caused by your brainwashing of your western education.

In other words, all I could do is give you a technical, erudite, semantic verbiage which would be as good as farting in the wind. Unless those technical words were pinned up by your personal experience and wisdom they are worthless. You understand and grasp words by how you live them. Words are meaningless unless they are grounded in a persons life. That's why I say, "Words are just shadows of the true form."

Well, I had better head back to the stroke clinic where I worked, and tell everybody that all the research in neuroscience, linguistics, and speech therapy, which they employ, is valueless, because it is like farting in the wind.   Such a relief to know that all that sciencey stuff doesn't really help people. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Karma
« Reply #989 on: December 16, 2016, 04:50:38 PM »
Well, I had better head back to the stroke clinic where I worked, and tell everybody that all the research in neuroscience, linguistics, and speech therapy, which they employ, is valueless, because it is like farting in the wind.   Such a relief to know that all that sciencey stuff doesn't really help people.
GOOD ON YOU
keep up the good work  I am in awe of people like you . Let the day dreamers have their mad hatters tea party if they want but shouting louder is not going to result in anyone taking them seriously, perhaps all they really want is a bag of sweeties and to be loved . 

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Karma
« Reply #990 on: December 16, 2016, 04:55:47 PM »
Because truly understanding what consciousness is comes from personal experience (i.e. it is ineffable) and as you lot hold the super-ant perspective on this it is quite obvious that you lot are in denial, caused by your brainwashing of your western education.

In other words, all I could do is give you a technical, erudite, semantic verbiage which would be as good as farting in the wind. Unless those technical words were pinned up by your personal experience and wisdom they are worthless. You understand and grasp words by how you live them. Words are meaningless unless they are grounded in a persons life. That's why I say, "Words are just shadows of the true form."
"You lot"?
What makes you think that I am part of that group? Where have I given technical etc verbage?
Maybe you should check first before you decry people?

Want to try again?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Karma
« Reply #991 on: December 16, 2016, 05:06:14 PM »
"You lot"?
What makes you think that I am part of that group? Where have I given technical etc verbage?
Maybe you should check first before you decry people?

Want to try again?


Just to note that Jack Knave has been suspended for 7 days, see link, so there will not be a reply for that time


http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=6939.50


Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Karma
« Reply #992 on: December 16, 2016, 05:09:48 PM »

Just to note that Jack Knave has been suspended for 7 days, see link, so there will not be a reply for that time


http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=6939.50
That's ok, I'm patient!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Karma
« Reply #993 on: December 16, 2016, 07:33:01 PM »
Is he absolutely certain about that?  ;)

I doubt it. ;)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Karma
« Reply #994 on: December 16, 2016, 07:34:28 PM »
I do have absolute certainty that there is something which perceives and controls my thoughts, and I am absolutely certain that science has not been able to define what this something is, or how it does it.

I think you make the writer's point most succinctly. :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: Karma
« Reply #995 on: December 16, 2016, 08:10:47 PM »
I do have absolute certainty that there is something which perceives and controls my thoughts, and I am absolutely certain that science has not been able to define what this something is, or how it does it.

I don't think anything controls my thoughts.  Thoughts happen, ideas occur.  I cannot decide which thought to think next; to do so would require me to have already thought about it.  That is circular.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18274
Re: Karma
« Reply #996 on: December 16, 2016, 08:17:31 PM »
I do have absolute certainty that there is something which perceives and controls my thoughts, and I am absolutely certain that science has not been able to define what this something is, or how it does it.

A very clever man once said this: 'Do not feel absolutely certain of anything' - good advice.

https://www.brainpickings.org/2012/05/02/a-liberal-decalogue-bertrand-russell/

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Karma
« Reply #997 on: December 16, 2016, 08:22:52 PM »

How do you think Science with its 19/20 Century methodologies (I don't mean technologies), will be up to the task of investigating such exotic phenomena as Parallel Universes, String Theory, Non-local influence, Consciousness participating in the evolution of the universe, Consciousness being independent of our bodies and so on...?!

Your list by the way doesn't include loop quantum gravity. However many of these can be investigated by using theoretical physics, and to some extent by experimental physics. E.g. those who have worked on string related hypotheses hoped/expected that the LHC would find evidence for supersymmetric particles. So far, no evidence of these has shown itself.

On the other hand such events as the revelation of the Higgs particle, the measurements made by the Planck satellite and the first ever detection of gravitational waves (announced this year) are experimental evidence for the standard model of elementary particles, the standard cosmological model and confirmation of general relativity, the theory of which is 100 years old.

So what different scientific methodologies would you recommend and how would you even start to find evidence for 'consciousness participating in the evolution of the universe, Consciousness being independent of our bodies and so on...' ?
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Karma
« Reply #998 on: December 16, 2016, 08:29:36 PM »
I don't think anything controls my thoughts.  Thoughts happen, ideas occur.  I cannot decide which thought to think next; to do so would require me to have already thought about it.  That is circular.

I was just thinking that I should be thinking that...and, surprise, surprise, I was. :o
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Karma
« Reply #999 on: December 17, 2016, 05:04:23 AM »


So what different scientific methodologies would you recommend and how would you even start to find evidence for 'consciousness participating in the evolution of the universe, Consciousness being independent of our bodies and so on...' ?


That is precisely what I asked you. How would you go about investigating these phenomena with standard scientific methods?  If you cannot, how do you suggest a 'scientific' investigation can be conducted? 

My question is...since you maintain that the scientific method is the only way to investigate phenomena, if some aspects of reality fall outside the scope of science...what will you do? How will they be investigated?

Or do you suggest that such phenomena cannot exist or that since they cannot be investigated through scientific means they should be abandoned as meaningless ideas?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 05:23:21 AM by Sriram »