Author Topic: Karma  (Read 94429 times)

Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2016, 02:44:45 PM »
I think you are reading some of your own prejudices into my post. I'm not advocating some disinterested attitude to suffering because, hey, shit happens, man. I am advocating facing up to reality rather than not facing up to reality; in the context of karma beliefs that means accepting the reality that birth defects happen through no fault of the person involved and these people are needing support not the prejudice that flows from an unjustified belief that this is some sort of cosmic justice being meted out.


torridon,

You do not KNOW that... 'birth defects happen through no fault of the person involved'.   Can you prove it?  That is just your belief and that is the materialistic...'no purpose, no ultimate cause'....  philosophy that you subscribe to.

Similarly, Karma is a part of another philosophy which  maintains that everything has a cause and a purpose. Karma is just the cause and effect mechanism.

You are talking as though you are somehow holding the CORRECT view and all others are having the WRONG view.  Science has not found anything that disproves Karma or reincarnation and nor does any theory of science get affected because of the Karma hypothesis. 

While you are free to subscribe to your philosophy, there is no conclusive evidence for your POV.

ippy

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Re: Karma
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2016, 03:59:12 PM »

torridon,

You do not KNOW that... 'birth defects happen through no fault of the person involved'.   Can you prove it?  That is just your belief and that is the materialistic...'no purpose, no ultimate cause'....  philosophy that you subscribe to.

Similarly, Karma is a part of another philosophy which  maintains that everything has a cause and a purpose. Karma is just the cause and effect mechanism.

You are talking as though you are somehow holding the CORRECT view and all others are having the WRONG view.  Science has not found anything that disproves Karma or reincarnation and nor does any theory of science get affected because of the Karma hypothesis. 

While you are free to subscribe to your philosophy, there is no conclusive evidence for your POV.

I'm surprised at you Sriram, another attempt to push the negative proof theory.

ippy

Brownie

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Re: Karma
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2016, 04:04:27 PM »
Sometimes birth defects happen because of things we do, we have seen that, Thalidomide comes to mind and there are other, negative things that affect a child in the womb.

I would find it difficult to accept that a child is responsible for their own defects because of things they did in a previous life.

At the same time, if I believed in reincarnation, I could accept that one could be improved, refined, for the next life, particularly if they had a difficult time in a previous life.  I like the 'onwards and upwards' idea.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2016, 04:19:00 PM »
Sometimes birth defects happen because of things we do, we have seen that, Thalidomide comes to mind and there are other, negative things that affect a child in the womb.

I would find it difficult to accept that a child is responsible for their own defects because of things they did in a previous life.

At the same time, if I believed in reincarnation, I could accept that one could be improved, refined, for the next life, particularly if they had a difficult time in a previous life.  I like the 'onwards and upwards' idea.


Yes...and all those things that we do to the child are part of the karmic effects. The 'child' is a child only in the new body. It is actually a person who has lived as an adult in another life and done certain things that are positive or negative. These energies affect its next birth. 

According to the philosophy, our conscious mind is new and gets generated in the new body. But the unconscious mind is part of our spirit that remembers the past life. In fact its the unconscious mind/spirit that decides what form to take in the new birth so as to clean up and develop further.

All this is meant for erosion of our base nature and  for development of the higher nature.

Here are cases of reincarnation ......(Ian Stevenson)

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=vIDES6VWl1MC&pg=PA270&lpg=PA270&dq=case+studies+in+lebanon+of+reincarnation&source=bl&ots=kB57-_wsex&sig=2VASz_dmvM5nS803CjdewiuC3ug&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB8KikqMnQAhVJqo8KHR47CUQQ6AEIPDAG#v=onepage&q=case%20studies%20in%20lebanon%20of%20reincarnation&f=false


Sorry that seems to be a long link...but it is a PDF file.

ekim

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Re: Karma
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2016, 04:21:00 PM »

At the same time, if I believed in reincarnation, I could accept that one could be improved, refined, for the next life, particularly if they had a difficult time in a previous life.  I like the 'onwards and upwards' idea.
It could also lead to procrastination or laziness .... I'll sort it all out in my next life.

Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2016, 04:29:33 PM »
It could also lead to procrastination or laziness .... I'll sort it all out in my next life.


We all know from modern science that the Conscious mind does not take most decisions. It is the unconscious mind that takes decisions. 

So the conscious mind cannot possibly decide on such matters involving karma and self development.  It happens automatically. 

Brownie

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Re: Karma
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2016, 04:48:30 PM »
It is a not unpleasant idea.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Karma
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2016, 05:57:02 PM »
I think you are reading some of your own prejudices into my post. I'm not advocating some disinterested attitude to suffering
I should hope not and accept your backpeddle.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Karma
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2016, 05:58:10 PM »
It could also lead to procrastination or laziness .... I'll sort it all out in my next life.
Agreed.

torridon

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Re: Karma
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2016, 10:06:19 PM »

We all know from modern science that the Conscious mind does not take most decisions. It is the unconscious mind that takes decisions. 

So the conscious mind cannot possibly decide on such matters involving karma and self development.  It happens automatically.

You seem to be identifying the soul with the subconscious mind, in contrast to Alan Burns who locates it in the conscious mind. Strange that.

Of course it is simplistic to think of them as being two entirely separate things, consciousness is something that admits of degrees, any anaesthetist will tell you that. You are happy to quote science only in so far as it supports your beliefs it seems to me.

torridon

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Re: Karma
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2016, 10:14:53 PM »

Yes...and all those things that we do to the child are part of the karmic effects. The 'child' is a child only in the new body. It is actually a person who has lived as an adult in another life and done certain things that are positive or negative. These energies affect its next birth. 

The real causes of birth defects are well understood by medical science - hormonal disturbance in the womb, poor health or lifestyle by the mother, drugs, alcohol, genetic factors, mother's age, chromosomal abberations, hypoxia at birth, the list goes on, but we don't need any woo to understand them, and none of them are attributable to the afflicted baby who is merely a victim in all this.  Neither are any of these factors attributable to deceased persons who could have been the baby in a 'previous life'.

Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2016, 06:13:20 AM »
You seem to be identifying the soul with the subconscious mind, in contrast to Alan Burns who locates it in the conscious mind. Strange that.

Of course it is simplistic to think of them as being two entirely separate things, consciousness is something that admits of degrees, any anaesthetist will tell you that. You are happy to quote science only in so far as it supports your beliefs it seems to me.


I am not splitting hairs between subconscious and unconsciousness minds. I am treating them as one and the same. 

I am also not identifying the unconscious mind with the spirit. Maybe they are one and the same... maybe they aren't. I am of the view that they are connected. That is all. This is unknown territory and it is wrong to be too sure of anything.

I can only say that the Mind has many layers. Some of the layers come in-built like the operating system of a computer. Some of it gets downloaded later.

Some of the layers have a local effect with limited awareness. Some of them can be universal with wide ranging awareness and influence.

Beyond it all, is the User...the subject...who drives the system and who decides how to use it.


« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 06:21:12 AM by Sriram »

Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2016, 06:20:07 AM »
The real causes of birth defects are well understood by medical science - hormonal disturbance in the womb, poor health or lifestyle by the mother, drugs, alcohol, genetic factors, mother's age, chromosomal abberations, hypoxia at birth, the list goes on, but we don't need any woo to understand them, and none of them are attributable to the afflicted baby who is merely a victim in all this.  Neither are any of these factors attributable to deceased persons who could have been the baby in a 'previous life'.


You are going on and on about the mechanisms!  Try to understand.   Science has discovered nothing but the mechanisms and processes through which the physical world works. It is always about 'How' things happen not about 'Why' things happen. 

Karma and reincarnation are about the 'Why'.  These ideas do not conflict with the processes or mechanisms.

Obviously there is a gap between these philosophies and our understanding of the physical world. We don't know how they fit together. So what?!

We don't know how QM and Relativity fit together either. We don't dismiss either one of these theories because of that anomaly.

torridon

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Re: Karma
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2016, 06:34:56 AM »

You are going on and on about the mechanisms!  Try to understand.   Science has discovered nothing but the mechanisms and processes through which the physical world works. It is always about 'How' things happen not about 'Why' things happen. 

Karma and reincarnation are about the 'Why'.  These ideas do not conflict with the processes or mechanisms.

Obviously there is a gap between these philosophies and our understanding of the physical world. We don't know how they fit together. So what?!


That is at the heart of your problem.  Your 'philosophies' are not born of an honest understanding of the physical world, that is why there is a 'gap'.  They are born of something other than a true desire to understand.  True philosophy owes a debt to science otherwise it is just a pointless exercise remaining ignorant of facts.  Whenever facts change, then so should our opinions and philosophies to reflect that.  Karma and suchlike reflect an understanding of the facts about how things work that is now thousands of years out of date.  Unless you are privy to some private insights not apparent to science about how this cosmic rebalancing mechanism could work across different people in different places at different times with no direct connections at the level that it is imagined. We cannot just make up beliefs in a vacuum and then claim them justified simply because they appear to fulfill a need to answer 'why' questions.

torridon

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Re: Karma
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2016, 06:37:27 AM »
I should hope not and accept your backpeddle.

Very funny, Mr Time Waster

Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2016, 07:12:28 AM »
That is at the heart of your problem.  Your 'philosophies' are not born of an honest understanding of the physical world, that is why there is a 'gap'.  They are born of something other than a true desire to understand.  True philosophy owes a debt to science otherwise it is just a pointless exercise remaining ignorant of facts.  Whenever facts change, then so should our opinions and philosophies to reflect that.  Karma and suchlike reflect an understanding of the facts about how things work that is now thousands of years out of date. Unless you are privy to some private insights not apparent to science about how this cosmic rebalancing mechanism could work across different people in different places at different times with no direct connections at the level that it is imagined. We cannot just make up beliefs in a vacuum and then claim them justified simply because they appear to fulfill a need to answer 'why' questions.


Of course....of course....most people in the world are privy to many private insights that are not apparent to science!!   What do you think spiritual philosophies and religious experiences are all about?!  That is what we keep arguing about.  I am surprised you have not understood this all these years!   

You just like to think that we are making up beliefs. They are real insights into the nature of the universe which is outside the scope of science. As simple as that. 

torridon

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Re: Karma
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2016, 07:37:02 AM »

Of course....of course....most people in the world are privy to many private insights that are not apparent to science!!   What do you think spiritual philosophies and religious experiences are all about?!  That is what we keep arguing about.  I am surprised you have not understood this all these years!   

You just like to think that we are making up beliefs. They are real insights into the nature of the universe which is outside the scope of science. As simple as that.

If these insights revealed some authentic objective truth then we could test for that with objective methods. And to some extent we have done that for instance with the blind trial studies that have been done on the power of prayer,  But the most generous interpretation of these studies comes down to placebo effect and nothing more profound than that.

Further to that, if these insights revealed some profound but partly hidden objective truth, then there would be some worldwide consensus of such insights; however what we see is some measure of homogeneity yet also enormous diversity in the detail and interpretation, which is in line with what we would expect in our species - it echoes the diversity profile of other aspects of humans such as the taste in music or fashion or arts.

People who go around making grandiose claims of privileged insight are setting themselves above everyone else.

SusanDoris

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Re: Karma
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2016, 07:40:11 AM »

torridon,
You do not KNOW that... 'birth defects happen through no fault of the person involved'.   Can you prove it?  That is just your belief and that is the materialistic...'no purpose, no ultimate cause'....  philosophy that you subscribe to.
Similarly, Karma is a part of another philosophy which  maintains that everything has a cause and a purpose. Karma is just the cause and effect mechanism.
You are talking as though you are somehow holding the CORRECT view and all others are having the WRONG view.  Science has not found anything thatdisproves Karma or reincarnation and nor does any theory of science get affected because of the Karma hypothesis. 
While you are free to subscribe to your philosophy, there is no conclusive evidence for your POV.
I listened to that rubbish - I wish I hadn't.

I hope you, Sriram, have read #63 and #66 several times at least and taken careful note.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 07:48:26 AM by SusanDoris »
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Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2016, 07:57:48 AM »
If these insights revealed some authentic objective truth then we could test for that with objective methods. And to some extent we have done that for instance with the blind trial studies that have been done on the power of prayer,  But the most generous interpretation of these studies comes down to placebo effect and nothing more profound than that.

Further to that, if these insights revealed some profound but partly hidden objective truth, then there would be some worldwide consensus of such insights; however what we see is some measure of homogeneity yet also enormous diversity in the detail and interpretation, which is in line with what we would expect in our species - it echoes the diversity profile of other aspects of humans such as the taste in music or fashion or arts.

People who go around making grandiose claims of privileged insight are setting themselves above everyone else.

torridon,

We have discussed this many times.  You are just trying to circumvent the issue.

1. The fact is that there are many private insights that people are privy to that Science cannot with its current methods, verify. That is a fact. 

2. It is also true that most such insights are common around the world....though their interpretations may vary. 

3. There are now attempts being made to bring all such insights together to formulate a common foundation. This will gather steam in coming generations.

4. Getting such insights tested by science, while desirable, is not essential.  No one is losing any sleep over the fact that science has not tested these insights.

5. Many individuals understand these experiences & insights... and there are very many groups all over the world that confirm and add to such insights. There are literally billions of people involved.

6. Science has its own little playground where it is useful. It is not useful everywhere.  This is something a few wiise scientists of today are beginning to realize....and most normal folk have known for a long time.

7. There are some areas where science could possible do some testing....but due to hardheaded materialistic views among many scientists, these opportunities are being wasted away. But that does not mean that people with these insights will lose confidence and buckle down. 

8. Science is not the be all and end all of life and the quest for knowledge. Science is only a very small peep hole into reality.

Cheers.

Sriram

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Karma
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2016, 10:12:10 AM »
Sriram,

Quote
1. The fact is that there are many private insights that people are privy to that Science cannot with its current methods, verify. That is a fact.

No it isn’t. There are many private beliefs – about all sorts of things – but if you want to claim them to be “insights” then you need a method of some kind to validate them.

Quote
2. It is also true that most such insights are common around the world....though their interpretations may vary.

No it isn’t. There’s a bewildering variety of personal beliefs, some of which become embedded at the tribal level. The only commonality concerns the human experience – we all for example grieve the loss of loved ones, so the wishful thinking that (say) they are reincarnated is comforting, and so finds traction with those unconcerned with logic or evidence.
 
Quote
3. There are now attempts being made to bring all such insights together to formulate a common foundation. This will gather steam in coming generations.

I’ll take your word for it that there are such attempts, but item one on their agenda should be to establish a method to distinguish their claims from woo. That these attempt will supposedly “gather steam” is just your assertion on the matter.

Quote
4. Getting such insights tested by science, while desirable, is not essential.  No one is losing any sleep over the fact that science has not tested these insights.

And nor does the world of science lose an sleep over the fact that it’s all indistinguishable from woo – in other words, it’s not even wrong.

Quote
5. Many individuals understand these experiences & insights... and there are very many groups all over the world that confirm and add to such insights. There are literally billions of people involved.

There might be “billions” who have unsupportable beliefs but an argumentum ad populum doesn’t help you, not least in this case because those beliefs vary so hugely.

Quote
6. Science has its own little playground where it is useful. It is not useful everywhere.  This is something a few wiise scientists of today are beginning to realize....and most normal folk have known for a long time.

“Science” claims only to address that with which it can engage – ie, the investigable. If you want to call that “its own little playground” that’s up to you, but I think you do it a disservice when you do that given the remarkable record of success and importance it's had in all our lives – which is you why you’d (presumably) take medicine to cure a serious illness rather than set fire to a bunch of sage leaves..

Quote
7. There are some areas where science could possible do some testing....but due to hardheaded materialistic views among many scientists, these opportunities are being wasted away. But that does not mean that people with these insights will lose confidence and buckle down.

Again it’s “beliefs” and not “insights”, and they probably won’t. And yes, science is “hardheadedly” materialistic because that’s all we know of that’s reliably accessible and investigable. If you think there’s another method to investigate your claims, then tell us what it is.   

Quote
8. Science is not the be all and end all of life and the quest for knowledge. Science is only a very small peep hole into reality.

That may or may not be true. Absent the methods of science though, what method would you propose instead to investigate your claims about this supposed “not science apt” reality?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 12:02:10 PM by bluehillside »
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Gonnagle

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Re: Karma
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2016, 11:02:28 AM »
Dear Sriram,

Thank you for this thread, I do like the concept of Karma but in a very Universal way, as in the whole Universe, trouble is we don't know enough about nature, we have only scratched surface of how it all fits together, it's like those scientists who look for The Grand Universal Theory ( GUT ) is it just, what goes around comes around.

I know that shit happens but is there a reason behind why shit happens, why are some babies born with defects or illness, I am optimistic that science will one day solve this puzzle, and in solving the puzzle it may give us some insight into the why.

Christians talk about the Sins of the Father, and I think there is a truth in that ( easy atheists, not the truth the whole truth, just a truth ) and it all goes back ( for me ) to what kind of world are we going to leave for our children, we need to be very careful how we conduct ourselves in this life as it will affect future generations, what goes around comes around, it would be better if we spread more good stuff that goes around, spread the good Karma get rid of the bad Karma. ;)

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Karma
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2016, 11:39:04 AM »
Hi Gonners,

Quote
Thank you for this thread, I do like the concept of Karma but in a very Universal way, as in the whole Universe, trouble is we don't know enough about nature, we have only scratched surface of how it all fits together, it's like those scientists who look for The Grand Universal Theory ( GUT ) is it just, what goes around comes around.

I know that shit happens but is there a reason behind why shit happens, why are some babies born with defects or illness, I am optimistic that science will one day solve this puzzle, and in solving the puzzle it may give us some insight into the why.

Christians talk about the Sins of the Father, and I think there is a truth in that ( easy atheists, not the truth the whole truth, just a truth ) and it all goes back ( for me ) to what kind of world are we going to leave for our children, we need to be very careful how we conduct ourselves in this life as it will affect future generations, what goes around comes around, it would be better if we spread more good stuff that goes around, spread the good Karma get rid of the bad Karma.

Sriram’s problem is that he overreaches - hugely so. If, say, you help the little old lady next door across the road every day for twenty years and after she’s died you find she’s left you a little something in her will you may or may not want to call that “karma”, but essentially it’s a commonplace and there’s nothing mystical about it.

What Sriram then does though is to extrapolate from that an entire system of celestial checks and balances by which you’d also be more likely, say, to win the lottery for your kind deeds. Why he thinks that is anyone’s guess, but mine would be a large dose of confirmation bias – “Fred’s a really nice guy, and he just won the lottery – see, karma!” combined with ignoring the silent evidence of all the times nice people don’t win the lottery, horrible people do win it etc. 
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torridon

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Re: Karma
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2016, 11:54:12 AM »
torridon,

We have discussed this many times.  You are just trying to circumvent the issue.

1. The fact is that there are many private insights that people are privy to that Science cannot with its current methods, verify. That is a fact. 

2. It is also true that most such insights are common around the world....though their interpretations may vary. 

3. There are now attempts being made to bring all such insights together to formulate a common foundation. This will gather steam in coming generations.

4. Getting such insights tested by science, while desirable, is not essential.  No one is losing any sleep over the fact that science has not tested these insights.

5. Many individuals understand these experiences & insights... and there are very many groups all over the world that confirm and add to such insights. There are literally billions of people involved.

6. Science has its own little playground where it is useful. It is not useful everywhere.  This is something a few wiise scientists of today are beginning to realize....and most normal folk have known for a long time.

7. There are some areas where science could possible do some testing....but due to hardheaded materialistic views among many scientists, these opportunities are being wasted away. But that does not mean that people with these insights will lose confidence and buckle down. 

8. Science is not the be all and end all of life and the quest for knowledge. Science is only a very small peep hole into reality.

Cheers.

Sriram

Well knowledge gained through scientific means might not be the be all and end all, but it could be the best starting point.  You know what they say about building your house on firm foundations, and knowledge gained through the discipline of scientific methods is less likely to be flaky than knowledge derived other ways.

And on 4/, I have already noted in a previous post, where scientists have bothered to take a look at claims such as the healing power of prayer or out of body experiences, the results have not validated the claims.  What this evidence is telling us, is that such sensational claims are curious products of human mind and not some glimpse of an entire undiscovered realm of reality that is not consistent with findings from research. It is a foolishness to think we could throw out all that we have learned over the last three hundred years in favour some ancient flaky ideas from pre-science. People might have esoteric experiences from time to time but to understand these experiences we should not be so neglectful of the modern body of knowledge. I can understand the attraction of the idea of karma, we all feel a yearning for there to be some ultimate justice but reality is not going to arrange itself to appease such human sensibilities. Ultimately it is better that we face realities rather than indulge fanciful and baseless beliefs to hide our discomfort.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 01:11:50 PM by torridon »

Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2016, 01:08:17 PM »
Dear Sriram,

Thank you for this thread, I do like the concept of Karma but in a very Universal way, as in the whole Universe, trouble is we don't know enough about nature, we have only scratched surface of how it all fits together, it's like those scientists who look for The Grand Universal Theory ( GUT ) is it just, what goes around comes around.

I know that shit happens but is there a reason behind why shit happens, why are some babies born with defects or illness, I am optimistic that science will one day solve this puzzle, and in solving the puzzle it may give us some insight into the why.

Christians talk about the Sins of the Father, and I think there is a truth in that ( easy atheists, not the truth the whole truth, just a truth ) and it all goes back ( for me ) to what kind of world are we going to leave for our children, we need to be very careful how we conduct ourselves in this life as it will affect future generations, what goes around comes around, it would be better if we spread more good stuff that goes around, spread the good Karma get rid of the bad Karma. ;)

Gonnagle.



Hi Gonnagle,

There are many ways of understanding life. Science is only one of them. It has its scope, its methodologies, its benefits and its limitations.

But Life is much more than what we can see through a microscope or a telescope. That is the point.

Animals behave according to their instincts. We cannot moralize to a lion and ask it not to kill its rivals or its rivals cubs. But humans can and do have the capacity to move away from animal tendencies. That is morality.  That is what self development is all about. That is what being civilized is all about. That is also what being a spiritually evolved person is all about. Its all the same thing....moving forward towards being more human or Divine...(as we want to call it).

Problem is that its not an simple one way movement. While humans can eliminate their animal tendencies, very often these forces are too strong and people tend to move backwards also. This is where the tussle begins. There are opposing forces pulling in opposite directions. One towards development and the other towards animal traits.   

And this is where Karma comes into the picture.

If we succumb to the animal forces we go against the developmental forces and this will necessarily force a correction in the opposite direction. This is what is the effect of Karma. 

People of science may not accept that there is anything like this kind of directed Self development or any Goal towards such development. For them everything is merely a process without any direction. Things just happen with no purpose or direction.

Well...they are welcome to their views...but people who believe in spiritual goals and in a divine purpose to life...they will be able to notice the forces of 'good and evil'....and the effects of Karma.

Cheers.

Sriram   

« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 01:21:43 PM by Sriram »

Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2016, 01:19:03 PM »
Well knowledge gained through scientific means might not be the be all and end all, but it could be the best starting point.  You know what they say about building your house on firm foundations, and knowledge gained through the discipline of scientific methods is less likely to be flaky than knowledge derived other ways.

And on 4/, I have already noted in a previous post, where scientists have bothered to apply take a look at claims such as the healing power of prayer or out of body experiences, the results have not validated the claims.  What this evidence is telling us, is that such sensational claims are curious products of human mind and not some glimpse of an entire undiscovered realm of reality that is not consistent with findings from research. It is a foolishness to think we could throw out all that we have learned over the last three hundred years in favour some ancient flaky ideas from pre-science. People might have esoteric experiences from time to time but to understand these experiences we should not be so neglectful of the modern body of knowledge. I can understand the attraction of the idea of karma, we all feel a yearning for there to be some ultimate justice but reality is not going to arrange itself to appease such human sensibilities. Ultimately it is better that we face realities rather than indulge fanciful and baseless beliefs to hide our discomfort.


The experiments on NDE's and healing have just begun. They have a long way to go. Don't start concluding on them just yet.

People said similar things about Yoga and meditations. People laughed at them just a few decades ago. Some people still do.  But the benefits of such techniques are only now beginning to be understood.

Scientific experiments are not just mechanical techniques performed by robots. There are humans involved and their biases, prejudices and beliefs are of great importance on how the experiments are designed and how the results are interpreted. Only when scientists become mentally prepared to accept favorable results will the real results be seen.

Fortunately, coming generations will not be stuck with the 19th and early 20th century ideas of science and spirituality that many of you seem to be stuck with.