Author Topic: Karma  (Read 94739 times)

Jack Knave

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Re: Karma
« Reply #125 on: November 29, 2016, 06:54:42 PM »
JK,

If by "tool" you mean something like, "method to distinguish the claim from white noise, guessing etc" then yes it is - at least so far.
So you use no personal experience, no inner value judgments, no emotional perspectives in your personal life then? No 'tools' like that? It is all scientifically analysed and assessed in a dry logical framework.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Karma
« Reply #126 on: November 29, 2016, 06:57:59 PM »
JK,

Quote
So you use no personal experience, no inner value judgments, no emotional perspectives in your personal life then? No 'tools' like that? It is all scientifically analysed and assessed in a dry logical framework.

Of course I use them. What I don't do though is to use those things as arguments for factual truths for other people.

That's the difference. 
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Jack Knave

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Re: Karma
« Reply #127 on: November 29, 2016, 07:02:49 PM »
OK I had a look at the link; didn't read far to be honest, it was quite old, and as expected, anecdotal stories about past life regressions, I would be looking for something more substantive than anecdotal claims.

We accept dark energy although we don't know what it is, but there is evidence for something having an effect on galaxies, we just don't understand it yet.  Is there any evidence for reincarnation beyond anecdotal claims ? Some things persist - energy is considered eternal perhaps, atomic matter, is for most intents and purposes, indestructible.  But I don't see how we can get from energy to souls, or something similarly complex that would fit the reincarnation idea. In reincarnation, it is a person that is somehow reborn is it not ? or perhaps the essence of a person or creature. But how to define that essence.  If I examine my self, I find I am made of the particularities associated by my private trajectory since conception, all my characteristics can be traced back to my biological parents and grandparents, this further coloured by my particular experiences through life.  If I subtract all this in a effort to find some 'essence'. or soul, there is nothing left.  I don't see what there is about me that does not come through this biological endowment.
The factors that are usually considered in this are psychological ones like mind, ideas, personality and character etc., dispositions and tendencies to certain ideas and skills or arts and so on.

torridon

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Re: Karma
« Reply #128 on: November 29, 2016, 07:04:10 PM »
But it is not the only tool in the box, then other is ones personal experience of life and the values one acquired from these.

Not all tools are equal though.  Before we had science, we ran largely on personal experience : most beliefs owed to 'revelations' from individuals - soothsayers, gurus, shamans, priests, prophets ....
 
Personal experiences are just personal though; science aims to remove the personal to approach the objective.  Persons are always full of particular biases.

torridon

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Re: Karma
« Reply #129 on: November 29, 2016, 07:07:07 PM »
The factors that are usually considered in this are psychological ones like mind, ideas, personality and character etc., dispositions and tendencies to certain ideas and skills or arts and so on.

Yes, these are attributes that I can trace back to my biological parents and formative life experience.  Subtract these from 'me', and what is left ?

ippy

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Re: Karma
« Reply #130 on: November 29, 2016, 11:12:12 PM »
And while that's true, it is an attempt to shift the burden of proof

I don't have an urge to write umpteen pages of foolscap to make every point, you got it N S, thanks.

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Karma
« Reply #131 on: November 30, 2016, 06:24:23 AM »
Not all tools are equal though.  Before we had science, we ran largely on personal experience : most beliefs owed to 'revelations' from individuals - soothsayers, gurus, shamans, priests, prophets ....
 
Personal experiences are just personal though; science aims to remove the personal to approach the objective.  Persons are always full of particular biases.
Oh and I suppose there was none of the interpersonal or inter subjective.

The problem with religion as a magisterium is when it is mediated by temporal authority and when it is totally unmediated.

The problem with science is similar when it is mediated by materialist popular science writers.

Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #132 on: November 30, 2016, 07:01:26 AM »
OK I had a look at the link; didn't read far to be honest, it was quite old, and as expected, anecdotal stories about past life regressions, I would be looking for something more substantive than anecdotal claims.

We accept dark energy although we don't know what it is, but there is evidence for something having an effect on galaxies, we just don't understand it yet.  Is there any evidence for reincarnation beyond anecdotal claims ? Some things persist - energy is considered eternal perhaps, atomic matter, is for most intents and purposes, indestructible.  But I don't see how we can get from energy to souls, or something similarly complex that would fit the reincarnation idea. In reincarnation, it is a person that is somehow reborn is it not ? or perhaps the essence of a person or creature. But how to define that essence.  If I examine my self, I find I am made of the particularities associated by my private trajectory since conception, all my characteristics can be traced back to my biological parents and grandparents, this further coloured by my particular experiences through life.  If I subtract all this in a effort to find some 'essence'. or soul, there is nothing left.  I don't see what there is about me that does not come through this biological endowment.


You are the ultimate reductionist!  You are missing out all the emergent properties that have arisen along the way!

We still don't know what the Mind is...much less what the Unconscious mind is.

To know oneself...there are other ways besides looking into our flesh and identifying the tissues, cells, DNA and atoms. ::)

The other way is introspection.  Looking into the mind and identifying our motivations, thoughts and finally the inner self.  Its a much bigger and complex world than the physical one.

In any case, all these are philosophical points that are not amenable to rigorous scientific inquiry under microscopes. 

PS: In reincarnation and NDE research what do you expect except anecdote?  You actually expect to see the soul through some instrument?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Karma
« Reply #133 on: November 30, 2016, 09:11:12 AM »
Sriram,

Quote
You are the ultimate reductionist!  You are missing out all the emergent properties that have arisen along the way!

Torri is very aware of emergent properties, and to be “reductionist” there needs to be something to reduce from. Just claiming a conjecture for which there’s no evidence to be an “emergent property” in the hope of riding on the coat tails of phenomena that actually are emergent properties is cheating. 

Quote
We still don't know what the Mind is...much less what the Unconscious mind is.

Actually we do know quite a lot about both these things, but yes – there is much to learn still about the nature of consciousness. That doesn’t though mean you can just drop in any woo that takes your fancy to plug the gap.

Quote
To know oneself...there are other ways besides looking into our flesh and identifying the tissues, cells, DNA and atoms. 
The other way is introspection.  Looking into the mind and identifying our motivations, thoughts and finally the inner self.  Its a much bigger and complex world than the physical one.

First, what makes you think that these things aren’t “physical”?

Second, once you have done these things how would you propose to bridge the gap from impressions to verifiable facts?

Quote
In any case, all these are philosophical points that are not amenable to rigorous scientific inquiry under microscopes.

Science is about a lot more than “looking through a microscope” as you so dismissively put it, and if not for the methods of science what method would you propose instead to distinguish your claims from woo?

Quote
PS: In reincarnation and NDE research what do you expect except anecdote?  You actually expect to see the soul through some instrument?

PS In research into the Loch Ness Monster, leprechauns and the Man in the Moon what else do you expect except anecdote?

Why should anyone take anecdotes about NDEs any more seriously than they should take anecdotes about any of these things?
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ekim

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Re: Karma
« Reply #134 on: November 30, 2016, 10:09:41 AM »

 If I examine my self, I find I am made of the particularities associated by my private trajectory since conception, all my characteristics can be traced back to my biological parents and grandparents, this further coloured by my particular experiences through life.  If I subtract all this in a effort to find some 'essence'. or soul, there is nothing left.  I don't see what there is about me that does not come through this biological endowment.
What is the 'I' which does the subtracting and finds nothing (no thing)?  What is the 'I' that doesn't see?  What happens when these questions cease and there is stillness?

Udayana

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Re: Karma
« Reply #135 on: November 30, 2016, 10:21:16 AM »
What is the 'I' which does the subtracting and finds nothing (no thing)?  What is the 'I' that doesn't see?  What happens when these questions cease and there is stillness?
I reckon you are either enlightened or dead. Maybe both? :)
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

torridon

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Re: Karma
« Reply #136 on: November 30, 2016, 10:35:54 AM »

You are the ultimate reductionist!  You are missing out all the emergent properties that have arisen along the way!

We still don't know what the Mind is...much less what the Unconscious mind is.

To know oneself...there are other ways besides looking into our flesh and identifying the tissues, cells, DNA and atoms. ::)

The other way is introspection.  Looking into the mind and identifying our motivations, thoughts and finally the inner self.  Its a much bigger and complex world than the physical one.

In any case, all these are philosophical points that are not amenable to rigorous scientific inquiry under microscopes. 

PS: In reincarnation and NDE research what do you expect except anecdote?  You actually expect to see the soul through some instrument?

Reductionist, well I don't see how complex things can be understood other than by looking to how their simpler constituents are arranged. Maybe we analyse the same phenomena in different ways because we have different imperatives, mine being a desire to understand this booming buzzing confusion we are born into, maybe others prioritise deriving ways to best live it and enjoy it. You approach is maybe top down, start with the lived experience and imagine some underlying rationale for it without worrying about the nuts and bolts; for me it has to be derivable from the bottom up.  Quantum theory is our best description of reality as it basest levels so anything than is not derivable from that is probably wrong and therefore just an entertaining diversion.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Karma
« Reply #137 on: November 30, 2016, 10:36:39 AM »
#124

Quote from: SwordOfTheSpirit
And please: no more of your dancing pixies on keyboards / your imaginary friend Colin / leprechauns, or teapots in space!
Quote from: bluehillside
These conjectures are all examples of the outcomes when I use the arguments you attempt for “God” (NPF, argument from incredulity etc and wearily etc) to conjectures other than your god. That they “work” equally for those conjectures too should tell you something about your arguments. Find an argument that doesn’t work for leprechauns though and we’ll have something to talk about.
Ok. State exactly what your reasons are for any your conjectures existing. What reasoning has led you to claim any knowledge of them? What evidence do you consider for their existence?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Karma
« Reply #138 on: November 30, 2016, 10:45:59 AM »
SOTS,

Quote
Ok. State exactly what your reasons are for any your conjectures existing. What reasoning has led you to claim any knowledge of them? What evidence do you consider for their existence?

That's called a non sequitur. I explained that, when the arguments you attempt for "God" work equally for conjectures you think to be ridiculous, then they're probably not good arguments. At no point did I claim to "have knowledge" of these things, let alone suggest that I had an argument that would mean that I was right about that.

Your choice at this point is either to amend the arguments on which you rely, or to junk them and to try something else. If you persist with them though, then you leave the rest of us no choice but to point and laugh - just as you would if I tried those same arguments for leprechauns.

Why is this difficult for you to grasp?
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God

Gordon

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Re: Karma
« Reply #139 on: November 30, 2016, 11:05:03 AM »
Ok. State exactly what your reasons are for any your conjectures existing. What reasoning has led you to claim any knowledge of them? What evidence do you consider for their existence?

Whoosh!


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Karma
« Reply #140 on: November 30, 2016, 11:21:47 AM »
Gordon,

Quote
Whoosh!

About 32,000 feet I reckon.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SusanDoris

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Re: Karma
« Reply #141 on: November 30, 2016, 12:00:54 PM »
Having just caught up - 'had '~this page can't be displayed' until ten minutes ago I am going to type the following with  apologies to mods, even if I have to then apologise to SotS or be suspended for a week or something.!!

SotS's posts seem to me to show that he  really does think he is so clever, don't they? :)
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Karma
« Reply #142 on: November 30, 2016, 12:05:15 PM »
Hi Susan,

Quote
Having just caught up - 'had '~this page can't be displayed' until ten minutes ago I am going to type the following with  apologies to mods, even if I have to then apologise to SotS or be suspended for a week or something.!!

SotS's posts seem to me to show that he  really does think he is so clever, don't they? :)

With acknowledgement to Wiggs, he's a good example of this I think:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

PS -I don't se anything "Moddable" in your post.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 12:12:27 PM by bluehillside »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Karma
« Reply #143 on: November 30, 2016, 12:12:14 PM »
Hi Susan,

With acknowledgement to Wiggs, he's a good example of this I think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

PS -I don't se anything "Moddable" in your post.
you might want to edit that link

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Karma
« Reply #144 on: November 30, 2016, 12:14:42 PM »
NS,

Quote
you might want to edit that link

Yeah thanks - I just noticed that I said he was an example of a small village in Scotland. I copied and pasted the link from Wiki - just tried it again and the same thing happened, so now I've tried it with a link to RationalWiki instead.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 12:17:41 PM by bluehillside »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Karma
« Reply #145 on: November 30, 2016, 12:20:48 PM »
Hi Susan,

With acknowledgement to Wiggs, he's a good example of this I think:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

PS -I don't se anything "Moddable" in your post.
Thank you - I read the first part of the link and will read the rest later. (I have heard of the effect before but had not read up on the details.)
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Sriram

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Re: Karma
« Reply #146 on: November 30, 2016, 02:19:02 PM »
Reductionist, well I don't see how complex things can be understood other than by looking to how their simpler constituents are arranged. Maybe we analyse the same phenomena in different ways because we have different imperatives, mine being a desire to understand this booming buzzing confusion we are born into, maybe others prioritise deriving ways to best live it and enjoy it. You approach is maybe top down, start with the lived experience and imagine some underlying rationale for it without worrying about the nuts and bolts; for me it has to be derivable from the bottom up.  Quantum theory is our best description of reality as it basest levels so anything than is not derivable from that is probably wrong and therefore just an entertaining diversion.


I have many times used the analogy of the Computer system. By examining the 'nuts and bolts' of the computer hardware we will never understand the messages that you and I write using it. The system consists of many different subsystems all of which work together. Hardware, Software, electricity, WiFi, and most importantly, the User.   

Too much emphasis on the nature of the hardware  and its evolution will not help in understanding the totality. We need a big picture view. Its about perception and view point....not about information. 

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Karma
« Reply #147 on: November 30, 2016, 02:45:04 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
I have many times used the analogy of the Computer system. By examining the 'nuts and bolts' of the computer hardware we will never understand the messages that you and I write using it. The system consists of many different subsystems all of which work together. Hardware, Software, electricity, WiFi, and most importantly, the User.   

Too much emphasis on the nature of the hardware  and its evolution will not help in understanding the totality. We need a big picture view. Its about perception and view point....not about information. 

And you have many times been corrected on it because software, electricity etc are all natural phenomena - variously discovered, described or designed using the methods and tools of science.

Science does look at "the big picture", but you can't just invent stuff and claim it it be part of a bigger picture still until you finally come up with a method of your own to validate your conjectures.

Good luck with it though.   
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 03:17:27 PM by bluehillside »
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wigginhall

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Re: Karma
« Reply #148 on: November 30, 2016, 03:30:14 PM »
It's all a bit like Tommy Cooper again.  There's hardware, software, the user, and the 'big picture' - just like that.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Karma
« Reply #149 on: November 30, 2016, 03:41:28 PM »
It's all a bit like Tommy Cooper again.  There's hardware, software, the user, and the 'big picture' - just like that.
it's another case of argument by analogy, similar to the DNA is compared to a code so therefore it is a code