Author Topic: Karma  (Read 94768 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Karma
« Reply #650 on: December 10, 2016, 01:20:34 PM »
Spoof,

No, it implies connectedness - that's the point.
Do I detect you hoisting the jolly Rodger for another bit of linguistic piracy me hearty?
Is all this talk of emergent adaptive property you introducing a red herring preceding the quiet   dropping of the word emergent?.......or worse ,an attempt to portray emergent adaptive as a tautology?

Shiver me timbers and f*** me categories!

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Karma
« Reply #651 on: December 10, 2016, 01:28:25 PM »
Spoof,

Quote
Do I detect you hoisting the jolly Rodger for another bit of linguistic piracy me hearty?

No – I leave that kind of thing to you (see “scientism”, “philosophical naturalism” etc”).

Quote
Is all this talk of emergent adaptive property you introducing a red herring preceding the quiet   dropping of the word emergent?.......or worse ,an attempt to portray emergent adaptive as a tautology?

None of that. Emergent systems come from the behaviours of their constituent parts – they’re connected. A top down designer on the other hand would be separate.

Quote
Shiver me timbers and f*** me categories!

Don’t sweat it – you’ve been corrected now so you can move on.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Karma
« Reply #652 on: December 10, 2016, 01:31:41 PM »
no I distinguish between 'magic' and 'unexplained'. 'Magic' means logically impossible; unexplained merely means unexplained. Dark matter is not magic, it is merely a placeholder for something that is still currently unexplained.


Wasn't X-ray a logical impossibility before it was discovered? Isn't a chemical molecule replicating itself and containing the entire information for formation of complex organisms, a logical impossibility? Aren't parallel universes existing just inches from us a logical impossibility? The entire universe arising out of a String vibrating in eleven dimensions a logical impossibility?  Isn't the Singularity arising from nothing, a logical impossibility? Isn't the idea of the universe expanding dramatically in an instant, a logical impossibility? 

Its all magic then!

Logic also evolves and adapts to changing requirements it seems! 

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Karma
« Reply #653 on: December 10, 2016, 01:37:13 PM »
Spoof,

No – I leave that kind of thing to you (see “scientism”, “philosophical naturalism” etc”).

None of that. Emergent systems come from the behaviours of their constituent parts – they’re connected. A top down designer on the other hand would be separate.

Don’t sweat it – you’ve been corrected now so you can move on.
A vast behind, as I suspected The buccaneer buccan' his categories again.
You need to remind yourself of the definition of emergent properties again, Jim Lad
So have the balls to cut the emergence bit and be a true reductionist there's a good lad.

After three me hearties "We sail the Ocean blue(Hillside) and our saucy ships a beauty"

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Karma
« Reply #654 on: December 10, 2016, 01:43:14 PM »
Spoof,

Quote
A vast behind, as I suspected The buccaneer buccan' his categories again.
You need to remind yourself of the definition of emergent properties again, Jim Lad
So have the balls to cut the emergence bit and be a true reductionist there's a good lad.

After three me hearties "We sail the Ocean blue(Hillside) and our saucy ships a beauty"

Dull incomprehension noted.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Karma
« Reply #655 on: December 10, 2016, 01:46:03 PM »
Spoof,

Dull incomprehension noted.
You want to start noting the definition of emergence.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Karma
« Reply #656 on: December 10, 2016, 02:00:52 PM »
But we know and understand the physical properties of termite colonies.  We can't say the same about conscious awareness, so the comparison is not valid since we can't even confirm what makes consciousness work.
Maybe when you can define exactly what a soul is, where it lives, what it consists of, how it processes thoughts, how it connects to our physical brain, how its observances are not observed by a higher soul's soul, when it becomes attached to a human etc
Maybe then you will have a point to make.


ps
please no theological hand waving of the kind,
Goddidit, works in mysterious ways, it's not for us to know, we can't know the mind of etc.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Karma
« Reply #657 on: December 10, 2016, 02:04:27 PM »
ekim,

The problem with that though is that it just posits this “observing entity” from nowhere. Complex or simple, it would presumably have to have enough complexity to perform the tasks you describe so how would any of that have come about? Our friend Mr Occam would suggest that adding more assumptions into the mix decreases the chance of finding the truth. Why not just stop at consciousness being an emerged level of complexity that sits on the layers of complexity beneath it all the way down to the neurons?

There’s an odd pattern here of people objecting to the hypothesis not because it’s non-congruent with the data and not because they have an alternative hypothesis that is congruent, but rather because it offends their sense of specialness (or in AB’s case because it undermines his personal model of reality).

Well, it goes on and on, with the immaterialists refusing to put forward any hypothesis of their own, as you say, that might be scrutinized and tested.   I suppose if they did, it would be a bit limp - well, the soul just is conscious, or God does it, or something like that.   Since they have very little, they spend most of their time attacking things like emergence, neuroscience, and so on.   

It's a bit like the creationists attacking evolution, but never quite telling us how giraffes are made by the Big Man.

Hence, the large amounts of reverse onus, i.e. burden of proof. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Karma
« Reply #658 on: December 10, 2016, 02:11:32 PM »

Hence, the large amounts of reverse onus, i.e. burden of proof.

for some reason I read that as
Hence, the large amounts of reverse anus, i.e. burden of spoof.
 ;)

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Karma
« Reply #659 on: December 10, 2016, 02:31:27 PM »
for some reason I read that as
Hence, the large amounts of reverse anus, i.e. burden of spoof.
 ;)
I think that just reveals a Large Hole in your understanding.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Karma
« Reply #660 on: December 10, 2016, 02:32:58 PM »
I think that just reveals a Large Hole in your understanding.

Either that or the overriding subliminal message portrayed in yours?  :-\
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Karma
« Reply #661 on: December 10, 2016, 02:35:03 PM »
No.
What have you got to hide after all shouldn't you want an inter subjective dialogue?
....not using your previous suggestions, if I recall the results could take years, or never appear at all.
Thanks but no thanks.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Karma
« Reply #662 on: December 10, 2016, 02:39:25 PM »
But for you faith in “God”, why would you think that “consciousness requires a single entity of awareness”?

Because there is only one of "me", and at any moment in time, I am aware of the content and activity of all the brain cells associated with vision, sound, taste, touch and imagination.  The "I" is a single receptacle for perceiving all this information and I am not aware of any mechanism in physics or chemistry to bring all this together into the one entity which is "me".

And "emergence" is not an entity in itself, just a pattern of complexity perceived from outside.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 02:57:16 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

SwordOfTheSpirit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
Re: Karma
« Reply #663 on: December 10, 2016, 02:43:59 PM »
#604

Quote from: bluehillside
So an adaptive system is assumed.

No – it’s deduced using the strong evidence that points in that direction, just as gravity making apples fall and germs causing diseases is deduced for the same basic reason.

Thanks for that startling confession. I suspect it was unintentional.

A deduction is based on truth. The fact that you are claiming this shows that you are assuming the conclusion as truth, rather than establishing the truth of the conclusion, therefore your reasoning is circular.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Karma
« Reply #664 on: December 10, 2016, 03:00:10 PM »
#604

Thanks for that startling confession. I suspect it was unintentional.

A deduction is based on truth. The fact that you are claiming this shows that you are assuming the conclusion as truth, rather than establishing the truth of the conclusion, therefore your reasoning is circular.

I see begging the question is another fallacy you don't understand, along with deductive arguments.

SwordOfTheSpirit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
Re: Karma
« Reply #665 on: December 10, 2016, 03:08:18 PM »
#635

Quote from: SusanDoris
#629
Well, I listened to the post several times at the  speed (202 wpm) I normally use, then copied and pasted it onto a document, slowed the speed and listened again twice. At which point I have given up trying to understand what you are saying.
Sorry about that ...

Sriram's point was this: If robots were able to discuss who their creator was, then if they used similar arguments that are usually applied against the idea of a designer for life, they could never conclude the truth, namely that they were created by human beings.

Your response
Quote
Re robots: Sriram seems to be putting forward the idea that robots could evolve naturally. They are, I would just like to mention, invented and made by humans so I think, if that is supposed to be an analogy, it doesn't work.
not only added weight to that, it also throws into question Torridon's claim (#535) but something from something more complex defies observed ubiquitous principles., as you cited an example that contradicts that claim.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5811
Re: Karma
« Reply #666 on: December 10, 2016, 03:24:34 PM »
ekim,

The problem with that though is that it just posits this “observing entity” from nowhere. Complex or simple, it would presumably have to have enough complexity to perform the tasks you describe so how would any of that have come about? Our friend Mr Occam would suggest that adding more assumptions into the mix decreases the chance of finding the truth. Why not just stop at consciousness being an emerged level of complexity that sits on the layers of complexity beneath it all the way down to the neurons?

There’s an odd pattern here of people objecting to the hypothesis not because it’s non-congruent with the data and not because they have an alternative hypothesis that is congruent, but rather because it offends their sense of specialness (or in AB’s case because it undermines his personal model of reality).
It only posits it as an alternative possibility rather than a definitive conclusion that consciousness comes from complexity.  It doesn't perform tasks, it just observes impartially, perhaps as a requirement for the feedback you mentioned or the emergence of intelligence.  Perhaps Mr Occam didn't appreciate that he was driven by swarm logic and that being open to alternative possible explanations is not the same as making assumptions and his version of 'truth' might not be the 'truth' which, say, the mystic is looking for.  I'm sure that many will stop at the model of consciousness being an emerged level of complexity, that's the way swarm logic works.  The mystic though is unlikely to be satisfied with any intellectual models, concepts, hypotheses and images, he is more concerned about the reality of his own being which he seeks inwardly by freeing his consciousness of the clutter imposed upon it by the swarm. It is a path towards simplicity rather than complexity.  I may be wrong but it seems that Mr. Johnson's hypothesis indicates that complexity breeds more complexity.  I won't comment about AB as I don't know him well enough.

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5811
Re: Karma
« Reply #667 on: December 10, 2016, 03:39:44 PM »
Well, it goes on and on, with the immaterialists refusing to put forward any hypothesis of their own, as you say, that might be scrutinized and tested.   I suppose if they did, it would be a bit limp - well, the soul just is conscious, or God does it, or something like that.   Since they have very little, they spend most of their time attacking things like emergence, neuroscience, and so on.   

It's a bit like the creationists attacking evolution, but never quite telling us how giraffes are made by the Big Man.

Hence, the large amounts of reverse onus, i.e. burden of proof.
If everybody is driven by swarm logic, what else can you expect?

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Karma
« Reply #668 on: December 10, 2016, 05:07:20 PM »
#635
Sorry about that ...

Sriram's point was this: If robots were able to discuss who their creator was, then if they used similar arguments that are usually applied against the idea of a designer for life, they could never conclude the truth, namely that they were created by human beings.

Your responsenot only added weight to that, it also throws into question Torridon's claim (#535) but something from something more complex defies observed ubiquitous principles., as you cited an example that contradicts that claim.


Thanks SOS for clarifying my point!   :)

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Karma
« Reply #669 on: December 10, 2016, 05:29:44 PM »
...... I am not aware of any mechanism in physics or chemistry to bring all this together into the one entity which is "me".

Just because you are not aware of any doesn't mean that one doesn't exist, does it?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Karma
« Reply #670 on: December 10, 2016, 06:11:24 PM »
Just because you are not aware of any doesn't mean that one doesn't exist, does it?
Neither does it mean it does.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Karma
« Reply #671 on: December 10, 2016, 06:36:12 PM »
Neither does it mean it does.
Correct. Give that man a shiny new turd.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Karma
« Reply #672 on: December 10, 2016, 06:38:36 PM »
#580

My contention would be the ability to learn in the first place being an emergent property of something else (which in turn is an emergent property from something before that, etc), then claiming consciousness as an emergent property of the ability to learn. It’s a classic circularity with that which exists being used to explain the emergence of that which exists.

Nothing is learnt, it is a misappropriation of a word. This is why these scientists have got their knickers in a twist and can't even feel the pain from it. It is a malapropism.

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Karma
« Reply #673 on: December 10, 2016, 06:44:22 PM »
Perhaps there is cellular awareness and when it losses it, it dies or becomes non adaptive.

I think I'll stick with the 'intuitive' for the time being.  Swarm logic doesn't appeal to me.  It sounds too much like mass mind and flock think, the sort of condition which appeals to consumerism, politics and religious indoctrination and other persuasive techniques.  Perhaps transcendence is the next stage of emergence.  :)
Swarm logic - more malapropism.

Jack Knave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
Re: Karma
« Reply #674 on: December 10, 2016, 06:54:10 PM »
How do you get from the accumulation of information, something a non conscious computer could do, to consciousness?
By redefining consciousness to mean robot!!!