God is the only person who cannot sin or be tempted and tested to do so.

[Brownie]

NM: ...those who have suffered oppression, over many years, will see him as their saviour...and their sins will be considered less sinful.


Forgive me for taking that bit out of the context of your post, Nicholas, but something I have always believed is that God will be merciful to sinners who have been oppressed for most of their lives, they have suffered so much he wouldn't be so unfair as to make them suffer more.  He'll judge each one of us as individuals, taking all our circumstances into account.  The bar is set higher for those who have great advantages.

So - in a roundabout way I am agreeing with you , at least with that bit.  I will have to read the post again to fully understand the rest of it.

[NicholasMarks]

NM: ...those who have suffered oppression, over many years, will see him as their saviour...and their sins will be considered less sinful.


Forgive me for taking that bit out of the context of your post, Nicholas, but something I have always believed is that God will be merciful to sinners who have been oppressed for most of their lives, they have suffered so much he wouldn't be so unfair as to make them suffer more.  He'll judge each one of us as individuals, taking all our circumstances into account.  The bar is set higher for those who have great advantages.

So - in a roundabout way I am agreeing with you , at least with that bit.  I will have to read the post again to fully understand the rest of it.

As I understand it Brownie we must each have a measure of righteousness to be saved. This is judging us individually and is also showing Jesus a willingness to be goverened by righteous laws. No one will be considered suitable if they make no effort before hand...excluding the innocent who already have a healthier outlook according to righteous decree.

Actually I was just having a little rant with a friend when I posted to you Brownie...nothing personal to you.

[Sassy]

As I understand it Brownie we must each have a measure of righteousness to be saved. This is judging us individually and is also showing Jesus a willingness to be goverened by righteous laws. No one will be considered suitable if they make no effort before hand...excluding the innocent who already have a healthier outlook according to righteous decree.

Actually I was just having a little rant with a friend when I posted to you Brownie...nothing personal to you.

LESS SINFUL?  The wages of sin is death.

How do you lessen the wages?

Sorry NM but sin is sin. In the NT there is a part on prayer and praying for the sins of others.

King James Bible
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

People wrongly take this to mean only some sin leads to death.
But the OT shows that some sins lead to instant death in this life, that people caught in adultery etc. We see such an incident when Jesus speaks to those about to stone a woman but not the man caught committing adultery.

As Jesus says: " Let he who is amongst you without sin cast the first stone."

There is no lesser sins, but rather sin which was instantly punishable by death.  Those who picked up stones to kill the woman dropped them one by one starting with the older ones first.
The longer they had lived the more sin they would have committed.

Sin is sin, but some sin lead to being put to death. Jesus said: " If you break one commandment you break them all"

There is no lesser or greater sin. But there is sins which brought instant death and were considered serious.

Paul said: I am the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus.

God : Abraham believed what God said about Issac his son.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

When we believe what God has said about Jesus Christ it counted as righteousness towards us.

How did you reach the conclusion that some sins can be lessened. All sins can be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

[NicholasMarks]

LESS SINFUL?  The wages of sin is death.

How do you lessen the wages?

Sorry NM but sin is sin. In the NT there is a part on prayer and praying for the sins of others.

King James Bible
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

People wrongly take this to mean only some sin leads to death.
But the OT shows that some sins lead to instant death in this life, that people caught in adultery etc. We see such an incident when Jesus speaks to those about to stone a woman but not the man caught committing adultery.

As Jesus says: " Let he who is amongst you without sin cast the first stone."

There is no lesser sins, but rather sin which was instantly punishable by death.  Those who picked up stones to kill the woman dropped them one by one starting with the older ones first.
The longer they had lived the more sin they would have committed.

Sin is sin, but some sin lead to being put to death. Jesus said: " If you break one commandment you break them all"

There is no lesser or greater sin. But there is sins which brought instant death and were considered serious.

Paul said: I am the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus.

God : Abraham believed what God said about Issac his son.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

When we believe what God has said about Jesus Christ it counted as righteousness towards us.

How did you reach the conclusion that some sins can be lessened. All sins can be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

When we walk through life being calm and collected we are being a little more righteous than those screaming and shouting at football matches and pop stars. One lot are sinning less than the other especially because of all that spiritual/electrical/emotional/genetic waste. But if those who are calm and collected are such because they have contrived all that emotional waste for their own advantage the opposite is true.

Genetic waste leads to genetic distress...hysteria within the living cells. Some will find it easier to soothe and calm their genetic distress, easier than others and I suggest they start asap because when Wormwood strikes only those with strong spiritual/electrical/emotional/genetic properties will be able to call themselves as working out their sinful nature...and everlasting life demands that we do....according to righteousness anyway...the same righteousness that Jesus taught.

[floo]

NM should write fairy tales, he has such a vivid imagination they could be best sellers.

[jeremyp]

Jesus is the Son of God. DOH. Lol.

So is Jesus God or not?

[Brownie]

I believe he is, so does Anchor, Alan, Ad_o, Hope, others.

Nicholas and Sassy (to whom your post was addressed), hopefully won't mind me saying, believe he isn't God.

Both opinions are backed up by Biblical passages.

What does it matter?  It will all 'come out in the wash'.  There are far more important issues.  Imho.

[floo]

I believe he is, so does Anchor, Alan, Ad_o, Hope, others.

Nicholas and Sassy (to whom your post was addressed), hopefully won't mind me saying, believe he isn't God.

Both opinions are backed up by Biblical passages.

What does it matter?  It will all 'come out in the wash'.  There are far more important issues.  Imho.

I agree there are far more important issues facing our world than those to do with mere matters of faith.

[Brownie]

I was meaning that particular issue which appears to be a stumbling block for some Christians, something I do not really understand but I've read all the posts with interest.

[jeremyp]

What does it matter?

Sassy claims that God is the only person who cannot be tempted by sin. If this is the case and Jesus is not God then the gospel story about the devil failing to tempt him must be false. Sassy has a dilemma: either Jesus is God, the title of her thread is false or the gospel is false.

[floo]

Sassy claims that God is the only person who cannot be tempted by sin. If this is the case and Jesus is not God then the gospel story about the devil failing to tempt him must be false. Sassy has a dilemma: either Jesus is God, the title of her thread is false or the gospel is false.

I  have no doubt Sass with have an explanation!

[Brownie]

I don't see it like that, jeremy.  The devil failed to tempt Jesus but that doesn't mean Jesus was incapable of being tempted.  He was human, experienced emotion like others - well illustrated in Gethsemane - but was strengthened and made the right choices (or what Christians consider to be the right ones). 

One could argue, as I believe Jesus is God, that I am wrong because I believe he could have been tempted.  However, to me, his strength and not allowing temptation to sway him, is far more important.

I certainly do not believe God the Father can be tempted but he sent his son into the world as a full human being not one with bits missing.

These are differences of opinion/interpretation, the like of which theologians have pondered and argued for aeons.  So we continue  .

[Sassy]

Sassy claims that God is the only person who cannot be tempted by sin. If this is the case and Jesus is not God then the gospel story about the devil failing to tempt him must be false. Sassy has a dilemma: either Jesus is God, the title of her thread is false or the gospel is false.

You got that all wrong didn't you?

If Jesus was fully human with the nature of God, then he can sin and he can be tempted and tested. But if human then the devil did tempt him if not God. So you need to re-think because being tested makes Christ fully human and the gospel true. But you have to remember that God cannot be tempted to sin, he cannot be tested for no higher power to test him.
Even Satan required Gods permission to test Job. Why would Satan say to Jesus.

6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

You see Satan is referring to God given his Angels charge concerning Christ.

It is clear that Jesus is the Son of God and God is the Father.

Why would he say " No one, nor the angels, only God knows the day of my return."
God knows ALL things. Jesus Christ did not know the day of his return so how could he be God?

[ippy]

Believing in Jesus Christ means believing in a God who is loving and caring towards those who follow his loving, caring laws towards our Deity and towards our neighbours.

Anyone who is watching world events must realise that their are people who live among us who have the appearance of being nice...even God fearing...but are in fact wolves in sheep clothing. These are the war-mongers who are seeking the downfall of everyone but their own  kind.

The only positive laws that conflict with these evil doers and expose them are the righteous laws of Jesus...and the only person doing anything positive about these evil beings is Almighty God, through his son Jesus Christ...and the only hope we've got for beating these oppressors who support mass slaughter, mass starvation, and mass destruction is by following Jesus accurately and in doing so showing evil everyone isn't fooled and especially Almighty God and Jesus Christ are not fooled and who offer us all an escape route from the impending danger that will have the last say in these matters.

Sinners who refuse to repent will see this God as a despicable God, full of nastiness and sin but those who have suffered oppression, over many years, will see him as their saviour...and their sins will be considered less sinful.

Hi there Nick, I note you have said in this post of yours as follows: "Believing in Jesus Christ means believing in a God who is loving and caring towards those who follow his loving, caring laws towards our Deity and towards our neighbours".

A very nice sentiment but the usual problem remains that you haven't yet established that this Jesus bloke you're always banging on about was actually the son of this god of yours, or in fact whether this god of yours does in fact exist, we've yet to see any verifiable evidence that these things did and do actually exist, you write as though they must exist and keep trying to use the bible to prove the bible is a factual book even though you must realise this is a borderline, need to get some help, argument.

Where is this verifiable evidence of the existence of this god you speak about, you haven't come up with anything realistic yet; only meaningless interminable sermons?

ippy

 

[jeremyp]

I don't see it like that, jeremy.  The devil failed to tempt Jesus but that doesn't mean Jesus was incapable of being tempted.

weasel words. The devil tried to tempt Jesus and failed. If the devil can't tempt Jesus, who can?

He was human, experienced emotion like others - well illustrated in Gethsemane

I agree he was human, but the Gethsemane story must be fiction.

[Brownie]

I am not saying anything intentionally ambiguous or misleading, jeremy, it is the conclusion I came to when I thought about it - for the first time!  Must admit, before this thread I'd never thought about whether or not Jesus could be tempted, the subject just didn't come up.  So I tried to work it out for myself but I'm far from infallible so could be wrong.

Regarding Gethsemane, it has never occurred to me the story is fiction.  It's one thing that is quite real to me.
When I used to go to church we had a service on the Thursday evening before Good Friday followed by a vigil (many churches do the same), the idea being that we stayed awake with Jesus; we meditated on the story of Gethsemane, I could picture it in my mind, almost felt some of the atmosphere, and it was very moving.

Still I understand none of that means anything at all to a non-believer.

[ippy]

I am not saying anything intentionally ambiguous or misleading, jeremy, it is the conclusion I came to when I thought about it - for the first time!  Must admit, before this thread I'd never thought about whether or not Jesus could be tempted, the subject just didn't come up.  So I tried to work it out for myself but I'm far from infallible so could be wrong.

Regarding Gethsemane, it has never occurred to me the story is fiction.  It's one thing that is quite real to me.
When I used to go to church we had a service on the Thursday evening before Good Friday followed by a vigil (many churches do the same), the idea being that we stayed awake with Jesus; we meditated on the story of Gethsemane, I could picture it in my mind, almost felt some of the atmosphere, and it was very moving.
J
Still I understand none of that means anything at all to a non-believer.

Isn't it more important to establish the veracity of all biblical claims before you then go on to debate anything like the subject of this thread?

ippy

[Brownie]

The thread wasn't started for that purpose, Ippy, but another thread could be started to discuss whether or not Biblical stories have any veracity.  You could do that, both are appropriate on the Christian topic.

[jeremyp]

I am not saying anything intentionally ambiguous or misleading, jeremy, it is the conclusion I came to when I thought about it - for the first time!  Must admit, before this thread I'd never thought about whether or not Jesus could be tempted, the subject just didn't come up.  So I tried to work it out for myself but I'm far from infallible so could be wrong.

This isn't about your beliefs. Presumably, as a mainstream Christian, you believe God and Jesus are one in some sense. Therefore, my argument does not work as far as you are concerned because one of its premises is that Jesus and God are separate entities.

Regarding Gethsemane, it has never occurred to me the story is fiction.

Have you never asked yourself who was there to report it?

[Brownie]

Yes I have, jeremy, of course, but I now speak as one who has faith and I feel certain it happened.  However I  have no evidence nor do I expect others to believe the same, so I don't preach.

[ippy]

The thread wasn't started for that purpose, Ippy, but another thread could be started to discuss whether or not Biblical stories have any veracity.  You could do that, both are appropriate on the Christian topic.

My post 66 plus, 'on any thread''?

ippy

[2Corrie]

 

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

A useful comparison of Jesus and Moses can be found in Hebrews 3:

1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
2who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
3For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses,  inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.

[floo]

4For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.

I think we would be suing god if it had built our house, judging by god's creation screw ups, it would be a cowboy job!

[Sassy]

A useful comparison of Jesus and Moses can be found in Hebrews 3:

1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
2who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
3For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses,  inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.

Do you feel you have a point Corrie?

You see Paul warns not to listen to anyone not even himself, if you cannot find what they teach in the OT.   
" In my FATHERS HOUSE there are many mansions and I go and prepare a place for you"

Regardless of the builders " But the builders rejected the most important stone"  So you appear to compare the building of the faith to something said about houses having a builder and God being the built all things.  But Moses or Christ having GLORY does not mean they are God but as we see Acts 7. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

In the same passage it is written:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

Both deliverers and one marking that which was to be the final deliverer.

I hope you find what you are looking for the truth that shows both Moses and Christ Prophets but Christ an Holy thing like Adam born by God speaking them into being and Christ being the Son of God.

[2Corrie]

Do you feel you have a point Corrie?

You see Paul warns not to listen to anyone not even himself, if you cannot find what they teach in the OT.   

Not in my Bible he doesn't!