A theological question for Unitarians

[2Corrie]

If the death of a human can atone for your sins, then why not atone for your own? What need for a saviour?

[Enki]

As I understand it the Unitarians generally do not believe in the doctrine of Atonement. So, why the question?

http://www.religionresourcesonline.org/religious-beliefs-wiki/Summary_of_Unitarianism

[Spud]

If the death of a human can atone for your sins, then why not atone for your own? What need for a saviour?

As mere humans, we can never emerge from the punishment.

[Alan Burns]

If the death of a human can atone for your sins, then why not atone for your own? What need for a saviour?

If we could atone fully for our own sins, Jesus need not have suffered torture and death.  We needed a saviour.  I do not pretend to know the full reasoning, but trust that this is what was needed, otherwise the suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus would be trivialised

[Anchorman]

Do we have any Unitarians on forum? I know we have those who profess to be Christian but reject the core Christian doctrine of the Trinity, but are they members of the Unitarian religion?

[floo]

As mere humans, we can never emerge from the punishment.

We are the real gods!

[Hope]

We are the real gods!

Fortunately, the Biblical God has nothing on the unpleasantness of humans.

[NicholasMarks]

If the death of a human can atone for your sins, then why not atone for your own? What need for a saviour?

You may not have noticed 2Corrie...but if you look around yourself, especially at the hypermarket you will see many people who are overweight, many hobbling, many with all sorts of genetic ailments and many who are short tempered, harressed and looking for bargains which often aren't bargains at all just clever marketing...in other words they are being manipulated by devious forces.

The Holy Bible tells us we were genetically perfect when first created and that by our sins we are now much less than perfect...in fact...by our sins death came into the world...but Jesus taught us how to put those sins on hold for a while while we repair from the damage caused by our sins. It means following him accurately.

Following him accurately means changing our attitudes and working with a good attitude towards everything we get involved in. No objections there surely?? If we try to follow Jesus  we are following a very advanced science...we are paying back for our sins...we are bringing the same genetic altering force alive which moulded and shaped evolution...and also which hastens cellular repair when living cells get damaged. When we follow Jesus we are doing this genetic alteration purposely in a controlled and responsible way rather than leaving it to accidental nature which has a tendency to corrupt the genetic code causing enormous health problems.

Yet we are ignoring the advice of the most wonderful scientist who has ever lived which is...follow Jesus, and never die.

[ippy]

Fortunately, the Biblical God has nothing on the unpleasantness of humans.

How can you possibly know this Hope?

ippy

[Hope]

How can you possibly know this Hope?

ippy

In a number of ways, ippy.  As a human being myself, I see the horrendous way in which humans treat each other.  By reading the Bible, I see what an incredibly loving being God is, and I have experienced some of that care and love on a number of occasions.

[Hope]

You may not have noticed 2Corrie ...

Are you a Unitarian, NM?  Just wondering, since you have queried a question from 2C to Unitarians.

[NicholasMarks]

Are you a Unitarian, NM?  Just wondering, since you have queried a question from 2C to Unitarians.

Up until an hour ago I would have said...'what's one of those' Hope...but, out of courtesy to the theme of this thread I took a quick look on Google which says it is someone who doesn't accept the trinity, in the form that it represents three facets of one being, so, on that basis, I would have to say yes.

My understanding says that Almighty God is the highest authority in the universe...a living representation of all the spiritual laws that express themselves in the highest scientific laws achievable.

Jesus Christ, by virtue of his righteous work here on planet Earth, made himself an equal to Almighty God but declined that status by simply insisting he remained the servant of that one true God. He now sits on the right hand of God just as the Holy Bible tells us. The Holy Spirit is the first primary form of God's spiritual nature...Jesus' spiritual nature and, indeed, our spiritual nature, if we choose to fashion our own spirit on righteousness...if we don't then we cannot be Holy in any shape or form and the Holy Spirit can't possibly guide us in the way righteousness allows.

Remember...all the angels in Heaven are Holy Spirits too and will only follow the dictates of righteousness...God's science of everything.



 

[ippy]

In a number of ways, ippy.  As a human being myself, I see the horrendous way in which humans treat each other.  By reading the Bible, I see what an incredibly loving being God is, and I have experienced some of that care and love on a number of occasions.

I suspect we're back to this thing you really think you can see, never mind, glass half full or half empty; I see plenty of human kindness where most of us struggle to make this world a bit of a better place.

Their's no need to have unsupportable superstitious beliefs to do good deeds.

ippy

[floo]

Fortunately, the Biblical God has nothing on the unpleasantness of humans.

You obviously haven't read the Bible, god has all the worst human characteristics and none of the best, it  even got a young unmarried girl up the duff!

[Sassy]

If the death of a human can atone for your sins, then why not atone for your own? What need for a saviour?

Where does the term 'Unitarian' and 'Trinitarian' originate or come from?
The list of what they believe exists because?

But when we look at the NT and the confirmation of the OT, neither is found in the teachings of the Prophets.
Christians are Jews that believe in the Messiah.

Christ said, " God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish.

Where does the 'Trinitarian' or 'Unitarian' list of beliefs exist in that truth?

Believers belief in God the Father, The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ.
What they also know is God put his words in Christs mouth.

You Corrie, like many here take something like the lists of beliefs of what a  'Unitarian' and 'Trinitarian' sre and make it part of something which it is not.

Jesus said:- " I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the FATHER but by me."

Not a set of manmade rules and beliefs simply knowing Jesus is the Son of God. What if what you wrote and others keeps people from entering in by the true gate Jesus Christ?

[Sassy]

The bible is clear that as all men are condemned by sin because of the one man, Adam. That is had to be by one man all are saved and not condemned. But as with Adam they have to choose what God says and obey it or ignore and disobey.

Christ was not born of sinful flesh, hence the virgin birth. He was born with a human nature but unlike Adam he chose to obey the words of God not the devil.

One man brought death and so One man brings life. Adam sinned to bring us death. Christ did not sin but paid the penalty of suffering the death in the place of all mankind that Adam brought on us. So the punishment for sins is completely paid in the sacrifice of the body and spilling of the blood of Christ.

[NicholasMarks]

The bible is clear that as all men are condemned by sin because of the one man, Adam. That is had to be by one man all are saved and not condemned. But as with Adam they have to choose what God says and obey it or ignore and disobey.

Christ was not born of sinful flesh, hence the virgin birth. He was born with a human nature but unlike Adam he chose to obey the words of God not the devil.

One man brought death and so One man brings life. Adam sinned to bring us death. Christ did not sin but paid the penalty of suffering the death in the place of all mankind that Adam brought on us. So the punishment for sins is completely paid in the sacrifice of the body and spilling of the blood of Christ.

Lovely Biblical sentiments Sassy in both posts. Not much to say really except that Jesus is always ready to forgive sin for those who repent in a sincere way but he doesn't condone all the evil in the world by forgiving sin for those who flagrantly abuse righteousness...they are falling deeper and deeper into their sins and ultimately will perish just as John says in Revelation 21:8...and time is pressing.

This only makes sense when we realise that even now we each have the ability to be resurrected providing we follow Jesus accurately...as he alone taught us and how we interpret his word ourselves...knowing that even if we get it wrong first time it will steer us to the truth via its many different links in the many different Biblical verses. This is deliberate because it gets us thinking and mental agility is an essential requirement of improving our health and lifting ourselves out of the quagmire of sin.

It is impossible to make a silk purse out of a sows ear and we must bear this in mind when quoting righteousness to those who refuse to listen.

   

[Anchorman]

Where does the term 'Unitarian' and 'Trinitarian' originate or come from? The list of what they believe exists because? But when we look at the NT and the confirmation of the OT, neither is found in the teachings of the Prophets. Christians are Jews that believe in the Messiah. Christ said, " God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish. Where does the 'Trinitarian' or 'Unitarian' list of beliefs exist in that truth? Believers belief in God the Father, The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ. What they also know is God put his words in Christs mouth. You Corrie, like many here take something like the lists of beliefs of what a  'Unitarian' and 'Trinitarian' sre and make it part of something which it is not. Jesus said:- " I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the FATHER but by me." Not a set of manmade rules and beliefs simply knowing Jesus is the Son of God. What if what you wrote and others keeps people from entering in by the true gate Jesus Christ?

Very, very interesting use of John, there. His frequent use of 'I am' - both when Jesus declares His purpose, as in here, and when He declares His identity - precipitating an attempted punishment for blasphemy by Jews well versed in Scripture - and the proscription on taking part of the Name as one's own. The following link is a bit in depth - I try to avoid being overtly theological; however it's worth a look when exploring 'ego eimi' in Johanine writing - and it also helps us think less in English, and more in the language in which John was written. http://vintage.aomin.org/EGO.html

[floo]

The bible is clear that as all men are condemned by sin because of the one man, Adam. That is had to be by one man all are saved and not condemned. But as with Adam they have to choose what God says and obey it or ignore and disobey.

Christ was not born of sinful flesh, hence the virgin birth. He was born with a human nature but unlike Adam he chose to obey the words of God not the devil.

One man brought death and so One man brings life. Adam sinned to bring us death. Christ did not sin but paid the penalty of suffering the death in the place of all mankind that Adam brought on us. So the punishment for sins is completely paid in the sacrifice of the body and spilling of the blood of Christ.

If that was true it proves the god character is a nasty psycho, as it set Adam and Eve up!

[Brownie]

That is a story created to illustrate in a pictorial way (typically Jewish), early man and woman's relationship with God and their decisions, floo!

[2Corrie]

Very, very interesting use of John, there. His frequent use of 'I am' - both when Jesus declares His purpose, as in here, and when He declares His identity - precipitating an attempted punishment for blasphemy by Jews well versed in Scripture - and the proscription on taking part of the Name as one's own. The following link is a bit in depth - I try to avoid being overtly theological; however it's worth a look when exploring 'ego eimi' in Johanine writing - and it also helps us think less in English, and more in the language in which John was written. http://vintage.aomin.org/EGO.html

Thankyou for the link Anchorman. I would have to agree with the author's conclusions.

[2Corrie]

Not a set of manmade rules and beliefs simply knowing Jesus is the Son of God. What if what you wrote and others keeps people from entering in by the true gate Jesus Christ?

What if indeed!  We will give an account for our answers to the question  "who do you say I am".

We both proclaim the Son of God, but what is the nature of the Son  of God?

[NicholasMarks]

What if indeed!  We will give an account for our answers to the question  "who do you say I am".

We both proclaim the Son of God, but what is the nature of the Son  of God?

The only authority which answers this question is the Gospels. I, Sassy or you 2Corrie can try and guide another but for accuracy we must take in the truth of the Gospels...There we are told plainly that Jesus Christ is the son of the one, true God and many verses tell us this as well so it is a little unwise to twist that reasoning to make it mean something else. Now...Almighty God has a Living Water that he is going to lead us to in the last days so we should try and understand what that living water is. Jesus Christ's teaching can never be changed so we must expect this invisible source of material to be somehow codified within his accurate righteous teaching...That is my stance anyway and following that reasoning as a part of my Bible Study has led me to some wonderful knowledge that appears to have escaped the machinations of those who profess to be experts in all fields of knowledge...but that isn't my fault.

[floo]

That is a story created to illustrate in a pictorial way (typically Jewish), early man and woman's relationship with God and their decisions, floo!

Brownie, I don't mean to be rude but sometimes your posts directed at me are like teaching your granny to suck eggs!  I don't believe for one second the story of Adam and Eve is factual, my post is directed at those who believe the Biblical stories to be true in every detail.

[Anchorman]

The only authority which answers this question is the Gospels. I, Sassy or you 2Corrie can try and guide another but for accuracy we must take in the truth of the Gospels...There we are told plainly that Jesus Christ is the son of the one, true God and many verses tell us this as well so it is a little unwise to twist that reasoning to make it mean something else. Now...Almighty God has a Living Water that he is going to lead us to in the last days so we should try and understand what that living water is. Jesus Christ's teaching can never be changed so we must expect this invisible source of material to be somehow codified within his accurate righteous teaching...That is my stance anyway and following that reasoning as a part of my Bible Study has led me to some wonderful knowledge that appears to have escaped the machinations of those who profess to be experts in all fields of knowledge...but that isn't my fault.

So how would you explain the 'Ego eimi' statements in John, then, NM?