Spirituality is a Science

[jeremyp]

That spirituality, the subject of the thread, is entirely imaginary

Sprtirituality wasn't mentioned in the question.

[jeremyp]

and your evidence for this claim is?

Surely spirituality is a state of mind.

[Sriram]

enki,

Even peeling an apple or cleaning the carpet can be done scientifically using certain methods and following certain principles. Anything that is done using established principles and rules to obtain specific results...is scientific. 

As regards other animals also having higher level qualities...of course, I agree.   I have said many times that it is a spectrum. Different animals also figure in the developmental process....not just humans.   Animals also have the same qualities (Divine spark) in them to varying degrees. Higher animals have more ...lower animals have less.

But it is in humans that we are able to consciously choose the higher vs the lower qualities.  Even in humans there is a broad spectrum with some humans at lower levels (nearer to animals) and some at the opposite end...and others at various levels in between.

[SusanDoris]

Please excuse me while I grovel for a moment or two!  I have read back through my posts and I used the word 'karma' in second or third post,, not 'spirituality'.
]In my defence, I think you cannot have a body of knowledge about spirituality either, although the word 'karma' fits better.

[Hope]

Hope

How can anyone have a 'body of knowledge' about something that is entirely imaginary?

Are you going to outdo Floo, and actually provide some evidence for your claim that spirituality, let alone faith, is 'entirely imaginary'?

[Hope]

Spirituality doesn't exist outside the human mind.

That's yet another claim that has never been evidenced, Floo.  Who will provide evidence first, you or Susan?

[Enki]

enki,

Even peeling an apple or cleaning the carpet can be done scientifically using certain methods and following certain principles. Anything that is done using established principles and rules to obtain specific results...is scientific. 

As regards other animals also having higher level qualities...of course, I agree.   I have said many times that it is a spectrum. Different animals also figure in the developmental process....not just humans.   Animals also have the same qualities (Divine spark) in them to varying degrees. Higher animals have more ...lower animals have less.

But it is in humans that we are able to consciously choose the higher vs the lower qualities.  Even in humans there is a broad spectrum with some humans at lower levels (nearer to animals) and some at the opposite end...and others at various levels in between.

In your first paragraph, you substitute the word 'scientific' for 'science' (which is what you originally claimed). However The fact that something can employ a technique which is vaguely similar to at least part of the methodology of science does not necessarily make it scientific, much less a science, I would suggest, at least in the modern sense of the word.

Different animals have all sorts of different qualities, some far exceeding those of humans of course. I suggest that you have no evidence whatever that any qualities that you care to name in humans/other animals have their origin in a 'divine spark'.

All you seem to be suggesting here is that because humans have more complex brains they are more able to control their thinking and have greater potential in choosing actions which are beneficial to human flourishing. I have no real problem with this. However I would suggest that this aspect of human behaviour is best investigated by neuroscience, in particular, which attempts to abide by the rigour of scientific method to reach its (provisional) conclusions.

[Sriram]

Ok..thanks enki!

[jeremyp]

That's yet another claim that has never been evidenced, Floo.  Who will provide evidence first, you or Susan?

Hope,

You don't honestly believe anybody is going to take your demands for evidence seriously, do you? Nobody fails to provide evidence on quite the epic scale that you do.

[SusanDoris]

Hope,

You don't honestly believe anybody is going to take your demands for evidence seriously, do you? Nobody fails to provide evidence on quite the epic scale that you do.

Seconded.

[floo]

That's yet another claim that has never been evidenced, Floo.  Who will provide evidence first, you or Susan?

Can you prove it exists outside the human mind, no of course you can't! You have never provided  evidence, which is credible for any of your claims.

[splashscuba]

Would spirituality exist if there were no humans ? If so how ?

[Maeght]

Of course the idea of spirituality is a product of the human mind.

[Nearly Sane]

Of course the idea of spirituality is a product of the human mind.

To be honest, I'm not sure we have a usable definition of spirituality but the OP seems to be suggesting something quite different from only a product of a human mind.

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

How do you evidence that claim?

A fair challenge – Susan’s post would perhaps have been more happily expressed as something like, “How can anyone have a 'body of knowledge' about something that is entirely indistinguishable from the imaginary?”

That said though, I’d have though that Sriram’s opening salvo of, “Spirituality is a Science. This is a Truism...” merits the same challenge as “spirituality" lacks pretty much every characteristic of science, starting with a definition of the term.

[SusanDoris]

NS,

A fair challenge – Susan’s post would perhaps have been more happily expressed as something like, “How can anyone have a 'body of knowledge' about something that is entirely indistinguishable from the imaginary?”

That said though, I’d have though that Sriram’s opening salvo of, “Spirituality is a Science. This is a Truism...” merits the same challenge as “spirituality" lacks pretty much every characteristic of science, starting with a definition of the term.

Thank you!  Well said, as always.

Mind you, at 80 I feel I can take  plenty of liberties!!

[bluehillside Retd.]

usan,

Thank you!  Well said, as always.

Mind you, at 80 I feel I can take  plenty of liberties!!

By special order of the Lord High Grand Panjandrum of the Mods, you my dear can take as many liberties as you like 

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

There is nothing imaginary about spirituality.  It involves certain theories and practices that generate very clear and predictable results in terms of human thoughts, feelings and behavior. They are often far more reliable than the so called scientific areas of psychology and psychiatry.

Cheers.

Sriram

[floo]

Hi everyone,

There is nothing imaginary about spirituality.  It involves certain theories and practices that generate very clear and predictable results in terms of human thoughts, feelings and behavior. They are often far more reliable than the so called scientific areas of psychology and psychiatry.

Cheers.

Sriram

Oh dear!

[Sebastian Toe]

Hi everyone,

There is nothing imaginary about spirituality.  It involves certain theories and practices that generate very clear and predictable results

Got any clear and predictable examples?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

There is nothing imaginary about spirituality.  It involves certain theories and practices that generate very clear and predictable results in terms of human thoughts, feelings and behavior. They are often far more reliable than the so called scientific areas of psychology and psychiatry.

Any chance then of a method to distinguish your "spirit" conjecture from other conjectures that are imaginary?

[Sriram]

Sriram,

Any chance then of a method to distinguish your "spirit" conjecture from other conjectures that are imaginary?

Observation and experience leads to Theory.  Theory leads to development of methods and techniques. Methods and techniques are used by people. These lead to desired and predictable results as per Theory. So the theory is validated.

As simple as that.

[torridon]

Observation and experience leads to Theory.  Theory leads to development of methods and techniques. Methods and techniques are used by people. These lead to desired and predictable results as per Theory. So the theory is validated.

As simple as that.

That's just generalisation to avoid answering Blue's challenge.  Set out a testable method to establish that spirits exist.

[Sriram]

That's just generalisation to avoid answering Blue's challenge.  Set out a testable method to establish that spirits exist.

It is the method and the results that validate the theory. What more do you want? You want a snapshot of the spirit or something?!!

[Gordon]

Observation and experience leads to Theory.  Theory leads to development of methods and techniques. Methods and techniques are used by people. These lead to desired and predictable results as per Theory. So the theory is validated.

As simple as that.

I take then, Sriram, that you have little experience in research methods since it is anything but 'simple' (and I do speak from experience).

So, given this is 'simple' stuff, in relation to 'spirituality' the theory, methods and techniques are what exactly? Moreover, on what basis is it known that the selected methods and techniques are in fact suited to testing the theory: for example, sampling methods, data capture tools or that the statistical tests are suited to the data?

You've mentioned theory being validated but you've haven't mentioned the possibility that theory might be invalidated presuming, of course, that your 'methods and techniques' are sufficiently robust so as to support any conclusions regarding your theory.