Author Topic: Spirituality is a Science  (Read 15173 times)

Gordon

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2016, 08:22:46 AM »

It is the method and the results that validate the theory. What more do you want? You want a snapshot of the spirit or something?!! ::)

I'd certainly want to see something resembling a research methodology as opposed to just chucking a few research-apt terms into a sentence or two and hoping that suffices: it doesn't.

Walter

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2016, 12:01:49 PM »

It is the method and the results that validate the theory. What more do you want? You want a snapshot of the spirit or something?!! ::)
if you've got any it would be a start because you have little clue on how to set up experiments

Sriram

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2016, 12:18:53 PM »


Hi everyone,

Refer my OP.

Spiritual philosophy and mysticism gave birth to Yoga, Pranayama, meditations and other practices. It is based on a spiritual explanation of life.

These methods are a way of eliminating our base desires, competitiveness and other animal tendencies. As our higher nature surfaces we become more selfless, loving, cooperative, humane etc. We will also become more healthy and peaceful because we will eliminate many of the negative energies (doshas) in the system.

Millions of Yoga, pranayama and meditation practitioners will confirm that all this actually happens. Scientists have confirmed that these results can actually be achieved through these practices. Schools, colleges, work places,  hospitals and even prisons have introduced these practices and achieved results. People do become more peaceful, happy, selfless, healthy, humane and so on.

So...no experiments need to be set up specifically for this.  It has all been confirmed time and again by millions of people around the world.   

Cheers.

Sriram

Gordon

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2016, 12:49:50 PM »

So...no experiments need to be set up specifically for this.  It has all been confirmed time and again by millions of people around the world.   

I see you've abandoned the research methods approach and opted for an argumentum ad populum instead.

Maeght

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2016, 01:17:15 PM »

Hi everyone,

Refer my OP.

Spiritual philosophy and mysticism gave birth to Yoga, Pranayama, meditations and other practices. It is based on a spiritual explanation of life.

These methods are a way of eliminating our base desires, competitiveness and other animal tendencies. As our higher nature surfaces we become more selfless, loving, cooperative, humane etc. We will also become more healthy and peaceful because we will eliminate many of the negative energies (doshas) in the system.

Millions of Yoga, pranayama and meditation practitioners will confirm that all this actually happens. Scientists have confirmed that these results can actually be achieved through these practices. Schools, colleges, work places,  hospitals and even prisons have introduced these practices and achieved results. People do become more peaceful, happy, selfless, healthy, humane and so on.

So...no experiments need to be set up specifically for this.  It has all been confirmed time and again by millions of people around the world.   

Cheers.

Sriram

I've done yoga and Tai Chi and felt rome benefits. I've also done relation techniques which do not involve any of the 'spititual' stuff and felt the same effects. What does this sort of thing really show about spirituality?

Sriram

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2016, 01:52:59 PM »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2016, 01:53:54 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
Observation and experience leads to Theory.  Theory leads to development of methods and techniques. Methods and techniques are used by people. These lead to desired and predictable results as per Theory. So the theory is validated.

As simple as that.

I understand how scientific theory works. How though would you map anything about "spirit" onto that method?

How would you define your terms? What data would you capture? How would you test it? What peer review would you propose? What falsification test would you build into your thesis?

If you want to use the methods of science (which seems an odd choice for a conjecture you presumably think to be non-material by the way, but it's your choice) then you have all your work ahead of you still to suggest how you'd actually apply it.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 02:10:48 PM by bluehillside »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2016, 01:56:46 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
Many scientists have confirmed these through experiments.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130711084920.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120404101824.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160309140042.htm

None of these things validate "spirit" or "karma" - they just say that people feel better for doing yoga. Fine. People feel better for playing the piano too. So what?
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Gordon

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2016, 02:22:48 PM »

Many scientists have confirmed these through experiments.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130711084920.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120404101824.htm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160309140042.htm

So what?

These are saying no more than that some find yoga beneficial: replace yoga with any number of things and some people will report that they feel it to be beneficial on a personal basis: riding fast motorcycles, enjoying a pint with friends, listening to music, playing sport, cooking etc etc.

If this is 'spirituality' then pretty much everything that produces endorphins is therefore 'spiritual', although 'biological' would be a better description. I suspect you are over-egging your preferred choice of pudding.
 

Enki

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2016, 04:29:41 PM »
My wife and I particpate in ballroom and sequence dancing. We, like many of our friends, enjoy doing so, and consider that all sorts of physical and mental benefits accrue from this activity. We would no more consider this a science than going to the pub and meeting a few friends there. Not sure where the 'spiritual' comes into this, but I'm sure I can find a way if I really try. ;)
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2016, 04:47:02 PM »
Enki,

Quote
Not sure where the 'spiritual' comes into this...

That'll be the pub bit I expect.
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ekim

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2016, 05:08:30 PM »
My wife and I particpate in ballroom and sequence dancing. We, like many of our friends, enjoy doing so, and consider that all sorts of physical and mental benefits accrue from this activity. We would no more consider this a science than going to the pub and meeting a few friends there. Not sure where the 'spiritual' comes into this, but I'm sure I can find a way if I really try. ;)
It's been done .... Sufi dancing.

Udayana

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2016, 05:26:56 PM »
Maybe it's not what you do but whether you know what you are doing.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Enki

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2016, 05:36:50 PM »
It's been done .... Sufi dancing.

Not the way we do it, it isn't.  :) We have enough trouble doing  natural spin turns, never mind double reverse spin turns in the waltz to even attempt sufi dancing. ::)
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Sriram

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2016, 05:14:59 AM »
Hi everyone,

Science does not mean only people in white coats working in laboratories....!  ::)

Anything that has a specific method and system.... and the workings of which are understood and which are repeatable with predictable results....is a Science. It can be Yoga or meditation or dancing or singing or chanting or walking or even  socializing.

In fact, religions often use music and singing, dancing, eating certain foods and so on to achieve certain mental states. They even advocate socializing, group meditations and chantings.

So..yes..many of the things that you people speak of can also be beneficial. There is a science behind them all.

The point is that the science behind many of our normal activities are not yet understood...rather the common man does not understand them. The science behind Yoga, Pranayama and meditations are however well understood to such an extent that very specific results can be achieved through very specific methods. Even temple visits, rituals, prayer, pilgrimages etc. have a science behind them.

And the science behind these techniques is a spiritual one in which the nature of the lower self is understood and the methods to discipline it is also understood.

Some of the methods may seem similar to workouts while others are meshed in with our normal day to day lives.  But they all have a clear purpose behind them...though normal folk may not understand them as such....which really does not matter at all. Everyone need not understand the purpose behind drinking milk or eating apples..as long as they do it.

Cheers.

Sriram



« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 05:17:17 AM by Sriram »

Gordon

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2016, 08:50:22 AM »
Hi everyone,

Science does not mean only people in white coats working in laboratories....!  ::)

Nobody said it did, so this is a straw-man.

Quote
Anything that has a specific method and system.... and the workings of which are understood and which are repeatable with predictable results....is a Science. It can be Yoga or meditation or dancing or singing or chanting or walking or even  socializing.

I think you are using 'science' loosely, and no doubt there are many aspects of our daily lives that involve 'science': so we know there are biological reasons why some activities 'feel good' just as these days (thanks to graphite shafts and the use of titanium in the club-heads) science allows us to make more efficient golf clubs compared to old wooden variety, But care must be taken to avoid slipping in claims of 'science' that aren't suited to the methods of science, since to do so would be using the fallacy of equivocation by using the term ambiguously.

If feeling 'spiritual' involves certain conditions within our brain then that could be investigated, subject to an appropriate definition of terms and suitable methodology, but if the claim involves some kind of non-natural agency then you'd need a method suited to that: but this wouldn't be 'science' as science is currently understood.

Quote
In fact, religions often use music and singing, dancing, eating certain foods and so on to achieve certain mental states. They even advocate socializing, group meditations and chantings.

Indeed they do - these are ritualistic methods of reinforcing the message by encouraging group compliance via special procedures, words, songs, clothes etc etc. For example, I was went to an RC funeral once (my only experience of an RC service) and was astonished at the amount of ritualistic behaviour involved, people getting down on there knees and then up again at certain points or them suddenly all saying the same thing in a kind a call and response process with the priest. I suppose this works on an 'if I'm doing all this stuff there must be something behind it' basis. 

As someone whose interest in sport is minimal I'm also very aware of the same thing going on when people on golf courses wear clothes they wouldn't be seen dead in elsewhere or, even worse, hearing someone on Radio 4 summarising a cricket game using a wheen of odd words and terms that only those in the know understand (why, in the case of cricket, they can be bothered in the first place is another mystery). That certain groups have their bespoke rituals isn't especially remarkable or significant: just 'par for the course'.

Quote
So..yes..many of the things that you people speak of can also be beneficial. There is a science behind them all.

The point is that the science behind many of our normal activities are not yet understood...rather the common man does not understand them. The science behind Yoga, Pranayama and meditations are however well understood to such an extent that very specific results can be achieved through very specific methods. Even temple visits, rituals, prayer, pilgrimages etc. have a science behind them.

Only where it involves aspects that are science-apt

Quote
And the science behind these techniques is a spiritual one in which the nature of the lower self is understood and the methods to discipline it is also understood.

Only if you define 'spiritual' in terms that are science-apt, else it ain't science no matter how much you'd like it to be the case.   

Quote
Some of the methods may seem similar to workouts while others are meshed in with our normal day to day lives.  But they all have a clear purpose behind them...though normal folk may not understand them as such....which really does not matter at all. Everyone need not understand the purpose behind drinking milk or eating apples..as long as they do it.

Nutrition, be it drinking milk or eating apples (or anything else) is an essential behaviour for survival, although sadly not for everyone, and is yet another area where humans have developed an approach that adds pleasure to the need: so we see a plethora of cuisines and resources to support them. I suppose you could call eating and drinking for survival 'purposeful', in a nutritional sense, but I suspect that you are using the term 'purpose' differently.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 09:04:01 AM by Gordon »

ekim

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2016, 10:55:41 AM »
East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet.  I can't see any benefit in associating 'science or scientific method' with 'spirituality and religious methods'.  The former tends to be outward looking, objective, information based with subjective models and the latter tends to be inward looking, withdrawing beyond the subjective and transformation based.  There are two other words which might serve better but they too have their weaknesses:
Gnosis..... Knowledge of spiritual mysteries.
Mysticism .... Belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.

Sriram

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2016, 04:01:24 PM »

The problem is that we tend to categorize and  dissect so much that we artificially separate many things and place them out of context of the real world.

Both religion/spirituality and Science have  been put in categories far separated from one another as though they are different worlds. We then choose which world we would like to associate with. This is nonsense.

Spirituality and religion are a natural part of our culture and our personalities and they help us develop. This development and its process have a scientific basis with a deep understanding of our psychology, inner minds and inner personalities. They are all connected.

Maeght

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2016, 04:16:37 PM »
We need to seperate things and have clear definitions of things to make meanings clear or else language just becomes meaningless. To classify spirituality, dance, song, golf, syncronised swimming etc as science blurs the distinction between those type of activities and activities invoving the scientific method and should, in my view, be avoided these days.

Sriram

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2016, 04:31:10 AM »
We need to seperate things and have clear definitions of things to make meanings clear or else language just becomes meaningless. To classify spirituality, dance, song, golf, syncronised swimming etc as science blurs the distinction between those type of activities and activities invoving the scientific method and should, in my view, be avoided these days.


Categorization is necessary only for the purpose of specialized study and learning.  It cannot become our world view....which is what it seems to have become. The Zoom-In tendency dominates.

With more and more narrowed definitions and narrowed perspectives, we lose the ability of integrating our views and seeing the world as a total reality....where everything meshes together...including science and spirituality.   

Walter

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2016, 12:03:18 PM »

Categorization is necessary only for the purpose of specialized study and learning.  It cannot become our world view....which is what it seems to have become. The Zoom-In tendency dominates.

With more and more narrowed definitions and narrowed perspectives, we lose the ability of integrating our views and seeing the world as a total reality....where everything meshes together...including science and spirituality.   
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jeremyp

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2016, 12:06:49 PM »

It is the method and the results that validate the theory. What more do you want?
We want you to say what the method is.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2016, 03:44:22 PM »
This is the old sense of 'science', isn't it?  It used to mean knowledge, (German: Wissenschaft), so theology was ranked as a science.  Well, OK, if you are a devotee of Aquinas, maybe.   Otherwise, a pointless use of the word.

Thanks wiggi. Sriram's (and NM's) waffling should end there. The word of course derives from the Latin Scientia, from scio, meaning "I know".
However, etymology does not overwhelmingly determine the modern usage of the word, which has a much more precise meaning.  The precise techniques of modern science are not at all aided by attempts to re-instate historical meanings of the word which only result in vacuous babblings.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #73 on: December 10, 2016, 03:47:26 PM »

"knowledge of any kind"
  (though I appeciate that this latter is deemed 'archaic' by the Oxford Dictionary)

Well, if you appreciate that, why the hell do you insist on trying to apply archaic definitions to the clearly defined modern usage of the word?
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ekim

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Re: Spirituality is a Science
« Reply #74 on: December 10, 2016, 03:58:42 PM »
Thanks wiggi. Sriram's (and NM's) waffling should end there. The word of course derives from the Latin Scientia, from scio, meaning "I know".
However, etymology does not overwhelmingly determine the modern usage of the word, which has a much more precise meaning.  The precise techniques of modern science are not at all aided by attempts to re-instate historical meanings of the word which only result in vacuous babblings.
It does confuse discussions especially as religions and their language are past oriented and scientific method is relatively recent.  The Vedas are a source of Indian spirituality and Veda means knowledge but not the sort which modern day science is associated with.