Spirituality is a Science

[torridon]

We should stop confusing Science as an investigative methodology with Science as a systematic process towards a desired goal. The first one often leads to the second.

Ahem, it is you that is creating that confusion 

[Sriram]

Ahem, it is you that is creating that confusion 

No confusion. Spirituality is a Science!   

[floo]

No confusion. Spirituality is a Science!

Rubbish!

[splashscuba]

No confusion. Spirituality is a Science!

You've all your work just to define spirituality, before you can claim science.

[SusanDoris]

Rubbish!

Seconded!!

[Sriram]

Somehow...the more some people deny my argument...the more I am convinced that I am correct! 

[Walter]

Somehow...the more some people deny my argument...the more I am convinced that I am correct! 

the saddest thing about this is, you think you have an argument.

[Dicky Underpants]

Somehow...the more some people deny my argument...the more I am convinced that I am correct! 

Please pay attention to what Slashcuba said so succinctly, before you wish to dilute the modern meaning of Science. "Spirituality" in itself is a vague term, and can mean anything from a sense of artistic sensibility to the yogic practices which you are no doubt specifically referring to.
In the broadest spectrum of the world religions of history, you might say that the human sacrifices of the Aztecs and the Incas constituted 'spirituality'  - I'm sure those ancient peoples thought they were appeasing the spirit world by slicing away at young virgins with obsidian knives.

In the Christian tradition, we know that San Juan de la Cruz was well into self-flagellation, as were the notorious flagellants of the middle-ages. Ostensibly, these practices were to imitate the sufferings of Christ, and no doubt they produced changes in consciousness. The real science comes in when we realise that, after intense pain, the body produces endorphins which in turn induce a sense of euphoria. Added to which there is the psycho-somatic component of feeling that the participants are doing the will of God and therefore may be on the way to paradise. The latter concept perhaps explains the behaviour of that revolting 'saint' who liked to lick the sores of lepers, and lick their arseholes, claiming that such activities produced in her the most ecstatic spiritual joy. Again, true science can explain the pathology, but to claim that such 'spirituality' is 'science', I think even you would agree is stretching definitions a bit too far.

Again, there is the spirituality of the practices of Zen Buddhism, which directly contradict your own concepts, since though there are meditative techniques advocated, there is no direct or expected correlation between performing such postures etc. and the likelihood of "Satori". In fact, it is an axiom of Zen that "if you try to get 'it', it will elude you".

In short, 'spirituality' is a mixed bag. I don't doubt the Hindu tradition is replete with discliplines and systems. Why can't you be content with calling them such, instead of this neurotic need to appropriate the word "science" for them, which is neither helpful to true science, nor to getting anyone interested in the corpus of religious experience to which you are apparently alluding.

[Sriram]

Please pay attention to what Slashcuba said so succinctly, before you wish to dilute the modern meaning of Science. "Spirituality" in itself is a vague term, and can mean anything from a sense of artistic sensibility to the yogic practices which you are no doubt specifically referring to.
In the broadest spectrum of the world religions of history, you might say that the human sacrifices of the Aztecs and the Incas constituted 'spirituality'  - I'm sure those ancient peoples thought they were appeasing the spirit world by slicing away at young virgins with obsidian knives.

In the Christian tradition, we know that San Juan de la Cruz was well into self-flagellation, as were the notorious flagellants of the middle-ages. Ostensibly, these practices were to imitate the sufferings of Christ, and no doubt they produced changes in consciousness. The real science comes in when we realise that, after intense pain, the body produces endorphins which in turn induce a sense of euphoria. Added to which there is the psycho-somatic component of feeling that the participants are doing the will of God and therefore may be on the way to paradise. The latter concept perhaps explains the behaviour of that revolting 'saint' who liked to lick the sores of lepers, and lick their arseholes, claiming that such activities produced in her the most ecstatic spiritual joy. Again, true science can explain the pathology, but to claim that such 'spirituality' is 'science', I think even you would agree is stretching definitions a bit too far.

Again, there is the spirituality of the practices of Zen Buddhism, which directly contradict your own concepts, since though there are meditative techniques advocated, there is no direct or expected correlation between performing such postures etc. and the likelihood of "Satori". In fact, it is an axiom of Zen that "if you try to get 'it', it will elude you".

In short, 'spirituality' is a mixed bag. I don't doubt the Hindu tradition is replete with discliplines and systems. Why can't you be content with calling them such, instead of this neurotic need to appropriate the word "science" for them, which is neither helpful to true science, nor to getting anyone interested in the corpus of religious experience to which you are apparently alluding.

Dicky,

Thanks for that.

Religions are different and religious practices are different I agree. But all these practices, if understood in context are all meant for the same purpose of reducing our ego related individuality and to increase our 'higher' qualities. The underlying principle is the same in all religions.

When Zen says that "if you try to get 'it', it will elude you". what is meant is that the Ego will start dominating the practice and therefore the purpose will not be served. After a certain stage of development, 'Letting Go' is the most effective spiritual practice.

Fundamentally, all spiritual practice is about Self Development, as I have pointed out many times. It is about increasing certain qualities in ourselves while eradicating certain others.  Various religions do it is various ways depending on the culture and mental level of the people. The principle is the same.

So...what appears as a mixed bag is only the many ways in which the same goal is reached. Different paths leading to the same goal. Like the same nutrition level can be achieved by eating wheat and veggies prepared in various ways. The basic science is the same.

Cheers.

Sriram




 

[Walter]

Dicky,

Thanks for that.

Religions are different and religious practices are different I agree. But all these practices, if understood in context are all meant for the same purpose of reducing our ego related individuality and to increase our 'higher' qualities. The underlying principle is the same in all religions.

When Zen says that "if you try to get 'it', it will elude you". what is meant is that the Ego will start dominating the practice and therefore the purpose will not be served. After a certain stage of development, 'Letting Go' is the most effective spiritual practice.

Fundamentally, all spiritual practice is about Self Development, as I have pointed out many times. It is about increasing certain qualities in ourselves while eradicating certain others.  Various religions do it is various ways depending on the culture and mental level of the people. The principle is the same.

So...what appears as a mixed bag is only the many ways in which the same goal is reached. Different paths leading to the same goal. Like the same nutrition level can be achieved by eating wheat and veggies prepared in various ways. The basic science is the same.

Cheers.

Sriram

the stench of this shit is seeping through my screen

[splashscuba]

Dicky,

Thanks for that.

Religions are different and religious practices are different I agree. But all these practices, if understood in context are all meant for the same purpose of reducing our ego related individuality and to increase our 'higher' qualities. The underlying principle is the same in all religions.

When Zen says that "if you try to get 'it', it will elude you". what is meant is that the Ego will start dominating the practice and therefore the purpose will not be served. After a certain stage of development, 'Letting Go' is the most effective spiritual practice.

Fundamentally, all spiritual practice is about Self Development, as I have pointed out many times. It is about increasing certain qualities in ourselves while eradicating certain others.  Various religions do it is various ways depending on the culture and mental level of the people. The principle is the same.

So...what appears as a mixed bag is only the many ways in which the same goal is reached. Different paths leading to the same goal. Like the same nutrition level can be achieved by eating wheat and veggies prepared in various ways. The basic science is the same.

Cheers.

Sriram

So you'll get back to us when you have a definition then ?

[jeremyp]

Some would say assembling flat pack furniture was a black art.

Yesterday I watched some workmen in our office assemble some new lockers in about half a day. In that time they assembled more furniture than is in my entire house. They were clearly very practiced.

I think the problem here is that people are mistaking processes as "science". Certainly science looks to investigate and define processes, but you wouldn't define them, in isolation, as science.

Agreed.

[jeremyp]

We should stop confusing Science as an investigative methodology with Science as a systematic process towards a desired goal. The first one often leads to the second.

It would be a lot easier not to confuse them if you didn't keep insisting on calling the second case "science" when it isn't.