Objectivity & Subjectivity

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

1. What is 'objectivity'?  Is it just about more than one person at a time sensing  or experiencing something?  How many people should sense/experience the same thing to make it objective? If five people together see a ghost for example...is it objective evidence...or is it still nonsense?  Or would we want some instrument to sense the ghost before we will accept it as real? If many people separately have similar experiences such as in NDE's...is that not objective evidence? Why is that dismissed as subjective?   

We rely more on instruments to detect objective phenomena rather than rely on human senses.....because we feel human senses and imagination are unreliable.  Ultimately everything is sensed only through the human mind. So...anything and everything can be just a subjective experience.

2. Real objectivity would be to see the world as just the String (given today's theories). It is the String that vibrates in 11 dimensions to transform itself into elementary particles which then become bigger particles..which then become atoms...which then bond to become molecules...which then form compounds ...and we then have the whole universe!

A true objective view would be to see the universe as just a transformation of the String. Every other view is just an illusion.    What the String is and why it transforms into so many particles...is of course the fundamental question.  And why and how are we...while being just products of the String ... none the less able to see the String itself 'objectively'? 

3. There is a view among scientific circles considering  Biocentrism, Parcipatory Anthropic Principle, Copenhagen Interpretation of QM, Quantum entanglement and non local influence etc...,  that Consciousness is the foundation of the universe and that all objectivity is just an illusion. Like in a Virtual Reality world...everything is just a subjective experience of our consciousness and objectively there is no real universe out there at all!

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

[ekim]

Perhaps another way of describing it is there is a subject consciousness and there is an apparent physical world (of objects) comprised of a variety of forms and forces.  Between the two is our sensory apparatus which react to and filter those reactions to an organ which converts the experiences into appropriate imagery e.g. thought forms, concepts, emotions, theories, models, strings, etc.  I seem to remember a Hindu expression 'namarupa' which might relate to this.  This is the subjective interpretation of the sensory input from the object world which is open to misinterpretation for a number of reasons e.g. faulty sense organs, insufficient input, corrupted input, the effect of accumulated desires and fears on that input.  Science and technology seeks to improve and sharpen up the sensory input resulting in potentially improved subjective models.  The way of the mystic is to free the subject consciousness from the 'subjective', rather than dig deeper into the 'world of objects'.  For those who think there is no 'real' world out there, I suggest they take care when they cross the road.

[Sriram]

Perhaps another way of describing it is there is a subject consciousness and there is an apparent physical world (of objects) comprised of a variety of forms and forces.  Between the two is our sensory apparatus which react to and filter those reactions to an organ which converts the experiences into appropriate imagery e.g. thought forms, concepts, emotions, theories, models, strings, etc.  I seem to remember a Hindu expression 'namarupa' which might relate to this.  This is the subjective interpretation of the sensory input from the object world which is open to misinterpretation for a number of reasons e.g. faulty sense organs, insufficient input, corrupted input, the effect of accumulated desires and fears on that input.  Science and technology seeks to improve and sharpen up the sensory input resulting in potentially improved subjective models.  The way of the mystic is to free the subject consciousness from the 'subjective', rather than dig deeper into the 'world of objects'.  For those who think there is no 'real' world out there, I suggest they take care when they cross the road.

ekim,

1. The point is that as long as WE are deciding what is objectivity...it remains a subjective view point. We just think that if several people together have the same view point it becomes 'objective'. This need not be so. It is just a collective subjectivity.  There is no such thing as an objective view independent of our subjective compulsions and limitations. This applies even to our instruments because they are only extensions of our senses.

What is the true objective view of the world we cannot even imagine....because we cannot see beyond the human senses, brain, logic and so on.

2. In a virtual world, the road accident will seem just as real except that you will suddenly realize that you are still alive in the 'real' world. A similar thing happens during an NDE. People meet with an accident, come out of the VR headset (body) and realize that they are still 'alive' and nothing has happened to them at all.

[Walter]

Hi Sriram
I notice you refer to NDEs in a number of threads and also in this one. Have you had the experience yourself. do you speak from experience?
I am someone who has had this so called NDE some years ago and struggled to understand it at the time. Would you be interested in discussing it with me on this thread?

[Udayana]

ekim,

1. The point is that as long as WE are deciding what is objectivity...it remains a subjective view point. We just think that if several people together have the same view point it becomes 'objective'. This need not be so. It is just a collective subjectivity.  There is no such thing as an objective view independent of our subjective compulsions and limitations. This applies even to our instruments because they are only extensions of our senses.

What is the true objective view of the world we cannot even imagine....because we cannot see beyond the human senses, brain, logic and so on.

2. In a virtual world, the road accident will seem just as real except that you will suddenly realize that you are still alive in the 'real' world. A similar thing happens during an NDE. People meet with an accident, come out of the VR headset (body) and realize that they are still 'alive' and nothing has happened to them at all.

1.It is easy to argue yourself into a solipsism. It is accepted that others have a separate existence and experiences of an "objective" world as that allows us to have philosophical discussions.
 
2.Depends .. what if you are a character in a cartoon and it stops or is even deleted - no waking up afterwards? The road accident just results in you sitting there with stars around your head or just absent from the rest of the story.

Arguing by analogy, you are limited only by your imagination.

[Sriram]

Hi Sriram
I notice you refer to NDEs in a number of threads and also in this one. Have you had the experience yourself. do you speak from experience?
I am someone who has had this so called NDE some years ago and struggled to understand it at the time. Would you be interested in discussing it with me on this thread?

Sure Walter....why not!? Please let us know what the experience was and whether you spoke about it to any researchers.

I am not an NDE expert nor have I had an NDE myself.  I have however read about them from 1976  when I read the first book (Life after Life) written by Dr.Raymond Moody.  I have read many other  books on them since then, including Sam Parnia's fairly recent book...'What happens when we Die'.

I believe that NDE's are evidence of an after-life...though some people argue that it is just a hallucination.   

[Walter]

Sure Walter....why not!? Please let us know what the experience was and whether you spoke about it to any researchers.

I am not an NDE expert nor have I had an NDE myself.  I have however read about them from 1976  when I read the first book (Life after Life) written by Dr.Raymond Moody.  I have read many other  books on them since then, including Sam Parnia's fairly recent book...'What happens when we Die'.

I believe that NDE's are evidence of an after-life...though some people argue that it is just a hallucination.

first of all I need to know why you think it is evidence for an afterlife, if you don't mind.

[Sriram]

first of all I need to know why you think it is evidence for an afterlife, if you don't mind.

Various reasons...

1. It is the direct experience of people who have been declared dead in medical terms by professional doctors. In some cases,even EEG's have shown the patient as dead. Dr. Sam Parnia has confirmed that these are After Death Experiences and not exactly Near Death experiences.

2. It is wide spread and happens across cultures,age groups, gender, education, social class etc.

3. The experiences themselves  are almost identical  and fairly uniform around the world.

4. The NDErs see and hear what happens around them when they are 'dead'. Doctors, nurses and others confirm these activities and procedures.

5. There is no reason to believe that the brain, which is only an organ in the body....would generate such complex and vivid experiences at the time of death.  Why and how could it do so in millions of patients with such uniformity?

6. Some people like Anita Moorjani have had spontaneous cures of cancer after the NDE.

Now...you tell me why you believe that NDE's are not after-life experiences and why your atheistic bias would not influence your opinion. 

[Walter]

Various reasons...

1. It is the direct experience of people who have been declared dead in medical terms by professional doctors. In some cases,even EEG's have shown the patient as dead. Dr. Sam Parnia has confirmed that these are After Death Experiences and not exactly Near Death experiences.

2. It is wide spread and happens across cultures,age groups, gender, education, social class etc.

3. The experiences themselves  are almost identical  and fairly uniform around the world.

4. The NDErs see and hear what happens around them when they are 'dead'. Doctors, nurses and others confirm these activities and procedures.

5. There is no reason to believe that the brain, which is only an organ in the body....would generate such complex and vivid experiences at the time of death.  Why and how could it do so in millions of patients with such uniformity?

6. Some people like Anita Moorjani have had spontaneous cures of cancer after the NDE.

Now...you tell me why you believe that NDE's are not after-life experiences and why your atheistic bias would not influence your opinion. 

in your last sentence you make a very unhelpful assumption which leads me to think there is no point in me carrying on with this, bearing in mind you have already made your mind up about what a NDE is. This is very disappointing , we could perhaps have learned something from each other.

[Sriram]

in your last sentence you make a very unhelpful assumption which leads me to think there is no point in me carrying on with this, bearing in mind you have already made your mind up about what a NDE is. This is very disappointing , we could perhaps have learned something from each other.

No...no. Please go ahead and let us discuss openly.

[Walter]

No...no. Please go ahead and let us discuss openly.

Ok  ill start with a brief description of why I was in this situation in the first place.
I was a motorbike rider and collided with a bus becoming trapped under it for some time. I had suffered multiple injuries and was on life support and not expected to survive the night. I was in and out of consciousness for a while but survived the night , and became  aware of what was going on around me.  It was around this time I  realised I was dying. I must also add I was heavily sedated with morphine.
Anyway the pain seamed to become less and less and I felt a warm relaxing sensation take over my body and I drifted into a very deep sleep. In my ensuing 'dream' I was aware of a long dark tunnel or corridor with light becoming brighter and brighter as I moved along it until I almost reached the end where it became too bright to look at . I did not reach the end of the corridor.
Then something strange happened, I was set a test whereby I had to make a decision which involved risking my life to prevent a tragedy (THE TRAGEDY BEING MY OWN ACCIDENT). The decision I had to make was , do I risk jumping out the ditch I was hiding in and run to a railway signal box to alert the signalman of a train and risk being shot by men looking for me , or do I keep still and do nothing.
I agonised over this for some time. In the end I decided to jump out the ditch and make a run for it reaching the signal box unharmed   with the person trying to shoot me directly behind me.

At this point I began to wake from my 'dream' and realised I had made the right choice.
I was told later by the doctors and nursing staff  that they had battled for three days to keep me alive. But to me it was only a dream .

That was my first experience. There were others over the course the next three weeks .

This all happened many years ago and I have simplified it greatly for the thread . Perhaps we could start with  this . I look forward to your comments ,Sriram.

[Sriram]

Ok  ill start with a brief description of why I was in this situation in the first place.
I was a motorbike rider and collided with a bus becoming trapped under it for some time. I had suffered multiple injuries and was on life support and not expected to survive the night. I was in and out of consciousness for a while but survived the night , and became  aware of what was going on around me.  It was around this time I  realised I was dying. I must also add I was heavily sedated with morphine.
Anyway the pain seamed to become less and less and I felt a warm relaxing sensation take over my body and I drifted into a very deep sleep. In my ensuing 'dream' I was aware of a long dark tunnel or corridor with light becoming brighter and brighter as I moved along it until I almost reached the end where it became too bright to look at . I did not reach the end of the corridor.
Then something strange happened, I was set a test whereby I had to make a decision which involved risking my life to prevent a tragedy (THE TRAGEDY BEING MY OWN ACCIDENT). The decision I had to make was , do I risk jumping out the ditch I was hiding in and run to a railway signal box to alert the signalman of a train and risk being shot by men looking for me , or do I keep still and do nothing.
I agonised over this for some time. In the end I decided to jump out the ditch and make a run for it reaching the signal box unharmed   with the person trying to shoot me directly behind me.

At this point I began to wake from my 'dream' and realised I had made the right choice.
I was told later by the doctors and nursing staff  that they had battled for three days to keep me alive. But to me it was only a dream .

That was my first experience. There were others over the course the next three weeks .

This all happened many years ago and I have simplified it greatly for the thread . Perhaps we could start with  this . I look forward to your comments ,Sriram.

Thanks Walter. That's very interesting. 

Right now it is almost bedtime for me. Just came in after finishing my dinner. I'll  read it and comment tomorrow morning.

Goodnight!

[Sriram]

Ok  ill start with a brief description of why I was in this situation in the first place.
I was a motorbike rider and collided with a bus becoming trapped under it for some time. I had suffered multiple injuries and was on life support and not expected to survive the night. I was in and out of consciousness for a while but survived the night , and became  aware of what was going on around me.  It was around this time I  realised I was dying. I must also add I was heavily sedated with morphine.
Anyway the pain seamed to become less and less and I felt a warm relaxing sensation take over my body and I drifted into a very deep sleep. In my ensuing 'dream' I was aware of a long dark tunnel or corridor with light becoming brighter and brighter as I moved along it until I almost reached the end where it became too bright to look at . I did not reach the end of the corridor.
Then something strange happened, I was set a test whereby I had to make a decision which involved risking my life to prevent a tragedy (THE TRAGEDY BEING MY OWN ACCIDENT). The decision I had to make was , do I risk jumping out the ditch I was hiding in and run to a railway signal box to alert the signalman of a train and risk being shot by men looking for me , or do I keep still and do nothing.
I agonised over this for some time. In the end I decided to jump out the ditch and make a run for it reaching the signal box unharmed   with the person trying to shoot me directly behind me.

At this point I began to wake from my 'dream' and realised I had made the right choice.
I was told later by the doctors and nursing staff  that they had battled for three days to keep me alive. But to me it was only a dream .

That was my first experience. There were others over the course the next three weeks .

This all happened many years ago and I have simplified it greatly for the thread . Perhaps we could start with  this . I look forward to your comments ,Sriram.

Hi Walter,

Well....at least some of your experiences seem to coincide with other NDE's. I have no comments to offer because it is your experience and only you can tell us what you think of it.  You were clearly not suffering even in that critical condition. You had consciousness of some sort and seem to have been fairly stable mentally. Is that right?

Some questions....

1. What or who gave you the 'test'?

2. Why did you feel you had made the right decision?

3. Did the doctors tell you that you were dead (in medical terms) at any time during the procedure that they followed?

4. Did you at any time during the entire incident, see your own body from the outside? Did you observe any other activity around you?

5. From your experience...do you think your consciousness could have existed independent of your body/brain?

6. Have you changed in any significant way since the incident?

7. Why don't you speak to someone like Sam Parnia (Southampton Hospital)?


Cheers.

Sriram

[Walter]

Hi Walter,

Well....at least some of your experiences seem to coincide with other NDE's. I have no comments to offer because it is your experience and only you can tell us what you think of it.  You were clearly not suffering even in that critical condition. You had consciousness of some sort and seem to have been fairly stable mentally. Is that right?

Some questions....

1. What or who gave you the 'test'?

2. Why did you feel you had made the right decision?

3. Did the doctors tell you that you were dead (in medical terms) at any time during the procedure that they followed?

4. Did you at any time during the entire incident, see your own body from the outside? Did you observe any other activity around you?

5. From your experience...do you think your consciousness could have existed independent of your body/brain?

6. Have you changed in any significant way since the incident?

7. Why don't you speak to someone like Sam Parnia (Southampton Hospital)?


Cheers.

Sriram

[Walter]

sorry didn't get the quote thing right

re your first sentence
not sure what you mean about not suffering. I was in indescribable pain and my mind was not functioning normally as a result but at the time of my experience I wasn't in much pain.

re point 1
not sure where the test came from it seamed to change from internal to external during the experience . however I had recently watched a film on the telly about a pilot in the war who was killed, went to heaven but was  sent back to earth and remember thinking I'm entangled in a film and my own reality.


point 2
it seamed like a moral decision of right and wrong and I had chosen the one that would allow me to live

point 3

no they didn't ,but told me I had had emergency surgery to prevent loss of brain fluid and to stop internal bleeding

point 4
yes , I saw my own body  as if it were a mirror image from about 2 metres above and was able to see out of the window into the car park outside and could see a car moving along the driveway

point 5

unable to answer that to this day but my instinct says no.

point 6
according to my sister I came out of hospital a different person. I was more troubled , aggressive and single minded. The single minded bit has stayed with me all my life

point 7
 I would not consider Sam Parnia a credible person to evaluate my experience.


cheers

[Nearly Sane]

sorry didn't get the quote thing right

re your first sentence
not sure what you mean about not suffering. I was in indescribable pain and my mind was not functioning normally as a result but at the time of my experience I wasn't in much pain.

re point 1
not sure where the test came from it seamed to change from internal to external during the experience . however I had recently watched a film on the telly about a pilot in the war who was killed, went to heaven but was  sent back to earth and remember thinking I'm entangled in a film and my own reality.

Just out of interest,  was it A Matter of Life and Death?

[Sriram]

sorry didn't get the quote thing right

re your first sentence
not sure what you mean about not suffering. I was in indescribable pain and my mind was not functioning normally as a result but at the time of my experience I wasn't in much pain.

re point 1
not sure where the test came from it seamed to change from internal to external during the experience . however I had recently watched a film on the telly about a pilot in the war who was killed, went to heaven but was  sent back to earth and remember thinking I'm entangled in a film and my own reality.


point 2
it seamed like a moral decision of right and wrong and I had chosen the one that would allow me to live

point 3

no they didn't ,but told me I had had emergency surgery to prevent loss of brain fluid and to stop internal bleeding

point 4
yes , I saw my own body  as if it were a mirror image from about 2 metres above and was able to see out of the window into the car park outside and could see a car moving along the driveway

point 5

unable to answer that to this day but my instinct says no.

point 6
according to my sister I came out of hospital a different person. I was more troubled , aggressive and single minded. The single minded bit has stayed with me all my life

point 7
 I would not consider Sam Parnia a credible person to evaluate my experience.


cheers

Hi Walter,

I am not an expert on NDE's though I am interested in the phenomenon.

The fact that you never actually died in medical terms (according to the doctors) means that you never really 'left the body'.  That is probably why you went up to the end of the tunnel and came back without going further.   Going out of the tunnel probably signifies leaving the body. 

Every other experience is probably your conscious mind and imagination reacting to the event. Like a dream (as you mention).  We must remember that the unconscious mind is always in control and leads the conscious mind to perform certain activities. Your decision to 'jump out of the ditch' was probably induced by your unconscious mind.

What I meant by saying that you were not suffering is that you were not in pain during the experience and the mind was still functioning....which is what you confirm.

Looking at your own body from the outside, seeing the car etc.  could be due to your unconscious mind that is probably not restricted to the body/brain. Many philosophers believe that the unconscious mind connects to a common consciousness and is aware of many things that the conscious mind is not.

Yeah...you probably did not have a full blown NDE. You nearly had it but came back at the nick of time and the rest is your imagination and conscious mind reacting to the traumatic event.  Most people who have an NDE become more peaceful, philosophical, selfless and fearless. You seem to have become more aggressive which also confirms that you did not have an NDE. 

Just my two pence worth. Glad you are still here with us

Cheers.

Sriram

[Walter]

well for someone who isn't an expert you have made a judgement about my description which is an obvious contradiction. 

[Walter]

Just out of interest,  was it A Matter of Life and Death?

Is that the name of the film I remember. or are you asking about my condition ?

[Walter]

Sriram
I have only mentioned one occasion , there were others during the three week period I was in intensive care

[Nearly Sane]

Is that the name of the film I remember. or are you asking about my condition ?

The name of the film

[Walter]

The name of the film

yes I think that's it , and the leading actor was ....erm....David NIVEN

[Sriram]

well for someone who isn't an expert you have made a judgement about my description which is an obvious contradiction.

You wanted to discuss the matter and I have given my views. Views don't have to be 'expert' views. You don't have to take it.

You can give details of the other events if you want.

[Walter]

You wanted to discuss the matter and I have given my views. Views don't have to be 'expert' views. You don't have to take it.

You can give details of the other events if you want.

Sri

this all happened many years ago and as far as I'm aware the term NDE did not exist nd I was troubled by the experiences for many years later . I searched for books and articles relating to it but found very little. I even spoke to my GP about it but he more or less shrugged it off being more concerned about my physical condition ,although he did prescribe some kind of mid altering drug to keep me calm at times of panic .

It wasn't until many years later when we all got the internet that I was really able to research the whole thing and many, in fact nearly all the cases I found were very similar to mine .
Some people became very religious, even starting a church based on it . I wasn't impressed with that so kept looking for a logical answer and I found it with a prof. Susan Greenwood (I might have her sir name wrong)who explained there was nothing mystical about it ,it was simply the body shutting down in such away as to make the experience of dying in horrific circumstances more pleasant ,rather than thrashing about in some sort of fit.

And that suited me.

btw its called NDE  not dead then come back to life experience, that is a whole other thing .

ALSO were you expecting me to say I had become thoughtful , philosophical , religious ,spiritual because of it?

If anything it caused me to ,live for the day, love like a fool , take chances , even my lifestyle is unconventional . Some people like me others don't and as for them I don't care.

does that fit in anywhere with your thoughts Sri?

 8)peace 

[Sriram]

Sri

this all happened many years ago and as far as I'm aware the term NDE did not exist nd I was troubled by the experiences for many years later . I searched for books and articles relating to it but found very little. I even spoke to my GP about it but he more or less shrugged it off being more concerned about my physical condition ,although he did prescribe some kind of mid altering drug to keep me calm at times of panic .

It wasn't until many years later when we all got the internet that I was really able to research the whole thing and many, in fact nearly all the cases I found were very similar to mine .
Some people became very religious, even starting a church based on it . I wasn't impressed with that so kept looking for a logical answer and I found it with a prof. Susan Greenwood (I might have her sir name wrong)who explained there was nothing mystical about it ,it was simply the body shutting down in such away as to make the experience of dying in horrific circumstances more pleasant ,rather than thrashing about in some sort of fit.

And that suited me.

btw its called NDE  not dead then come back to life experience, that is a whole other thing .

ALSO were you expecting me to say I had become thoughtful , philosophical , religious ,spiritual because of it?

If anything it caused me to ,live for the day, love like a fool , take chances , even my lifestyle is unconventional . Some people like me others don't and as for them I don't care.

does that fit in anywhere with your thoughts Sri?

 8)peace

Walter,

As I said...you probably did not have a NDE....since you were not medically dead anytime during the process.  It is probably only mental trauma that you have experienced due to the accident.

The experience of a complete NDE (being medically dead) could be very different and might leave you with a very different attitude, as many have experienced. 

Cheers.

Sriram