Catholic priests and celibacy

[floo]

I wonder why is it that Catholic priests are expected to be celibate? Depriving men of a sexual activity, within an adult consenting relationship, must screw many of them up. It is particularly unfair that married priests who convert to the Catholic priest are permitted to be priests in the Catholic church.

Whilst it is never in a million years an excuse for paedophilia, I do wonder if some priests  are tipped over the edge and become perverts because they are expect to be celibate?

[Harrowby Hall]

Celibacy (in the true meaning of the word) was imposed on priests in medieval times because priests were marrying, having children and then passing church property on to their children. So it was to protect church property. This eventually was transformed into "unmarried priests can devote their entire time to the needs of their congregations and not be distracted by their own family". Celibacy is a discipline.

To the best on my understanding, there are no rules which prevent priests engaging in sexual relations. However, fornication and adultery (absence of these is  a popular mistaken understanding of celibacy) are sins so they should avoid such behaviour. Avoiding sexual activity is chastity not celibacy.

Anglican, for example, priests who convert to Roman Catholicism can remain married. Marriage is not forbidden for all priests of the RC Church. Priests in some of the eastern rites (non-Roman but still accepting papal authority) are permitted to marry.

I would guess that no non-paedophile men are "tipped over the edge" but they had their perversions already (like scout leaders or football coaches or whatever). Heterosexual priests will find accommodating women (and possible employ them as housekeepers).

My guess is that in the not too distant future, the discipline of celibacy will be abandoned (possibly incrementally by allowing bishops to excuse priests from the discipline of celibacy) and women will be permitted to become priests. I suspect that the RC Church may soon be running out of men wanting to enter the priesthood,

[Brownie]

Harrowby Hall:I would guess that no non-paedophile men are "tipped over the edge" but they had their perversions already (like scout leaders or football coaches or whatever).

Quite right.  A person who is sexually frustrated and/or wants a bit of loving isn't going to choose kids as an outlet.  A paedophile has a particular mindset and will often choose a path that gives him access to children.

I agree with the rest of your post, too.

[Hope]

I wonder why is it that Catholic priests are expected to be celibate? Depriving men of a sexual activity, within an adult consenting relationship, must screw many of them up. It is particularly unfair that married priests who convert to the Catholic priest are permitted to be priests in the Catholic church.

Whilst it is never in a million years an excuse for paedophilia, I do wonder if some priests  are tipped over the edge and become perverts because they are expect to be celibate?

You've done this subject several times before, Floo.  I suspect you'll get the same answers here as before.

[Brownie]

Already has Hope.

I was thinking, those non-clergy people who are paedophiles aren't tipped over the edge by celibacy. A good many aren't celibate but married!
There are plenty of celibate people who aren't paedos.

[floo]

Already has Hope.

I was thinking, those non-clergy people who are paedophiles aren't tipped over the edge by celibacy. A good many aren't celibate but married!
There are plenty of celibate people who aren't paedos.

If you are celibate by choice that is fine, but having it forced upon you is abusive.

[Hope]

If you are celibate by choice that is fine, but having it forced upon you is abusive.

If someone freely chooses to work for an organisation which has certain restrictions on behaviour, are they being forced into that restricted behaviour, Floo?

[Harrowby Hall]

If you are celibate by choice that is fine, but having it forced upon you is abusive.

Floo

You still give the impression of thinking that celibate means abstaining from sex. It does not - IN THIS CONTEXT - it means not being married. The context - which you have established - is the Roman Catholic Church. When the RC Church says, or uses the term celibate it means not married. Being married is a choice  - as is becoming a priest.

The state of celibacy has nothing to do with abstaining from sexual activity.

[Hope]

Floo

You still give the impression of thinking that celibate means abstaining from sex. It does not - IN THIS CONTEXT - it means not being married. The context - which you have established - is the Roman Catholic Church. When the RC Church says, or uses the term celibate it means not married. Being married is a choice  - as is becoming a priest.

The state of celibacy has nothing to do with abstaining from sexual activity.

But since the Church also denounces sexual intercourse outside of marriage, HH, not being married also involves abstaining from sex - as far as a Catholic priest is concerned.  Interestingly, the Oxford Dictionary definition of celibacy includes both aspects with an 'and' in between.

However, i'm not sure how anyone can be said to be being 'forced' into something when they know the condition before signing up.

[Brownie]

If you are celibate by choice that is fine, but having it forced upon you is abusive.

I agree but who has it forced upon them?  Nobody is forced to be a Catholic priest.  It takes years to actually become one, during which time they can work out whether or not they are suited.   

In days gone by, boys often went into the seminary straight from school, not a good idea, but for quite a long time now there is a lower age limit for entry and older people are accepted.   Out of all who think they may have a vocation, only a small percentage finish the process.

Whilst I agree with what has been said about celibacy being unnecessary for the priesthood, for the reasons given, you can't blame celibacy for everything, floo.

The majority of cases of sexual abuse of kids and vulnerable adults are committed by those who have taken no vow of celibacy.  Indeed, they often use marriage/partnerships as cover.

[floo]

If someone freely chooses to work for an organisation which has certain restrictions on behaviour, are they being forced into that restricted behaviour, Floo?

Yes, if it is unreasonable, as forced celibacy is. Everyone should have a right to a consensual adult sex life if they so wish it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes, if it is unreasonable, as forced celibacy is. Everyone should have a right to a consensual adult sex life if they so wish it.

There is a rumour Floo that Catholics go into the priesthood of their own volition.

[Aruntraveller]

Floo

I really am not sure what you are trying to say here. I agree that the requirement for celibacy or abstention or whatever it actually is that the RC expect is nonsense, but if someone goes into the priesthood they do know that is what is expected.

And if they do find they can't manage then they always could do the honourable thing and leave the priesthood. As far as I can see there is no element of coercion on the part of the Church.

Of the many things you could choose to attack the RC over this just sounds pointless and silly.

[floo]

Floo

I really am not sure what you are trying to say here. I agree that the requirement for celibacy or abstention or whatever it actually is that the RC expect is nonsense, but if someone goes into the priesthood they do know that is what is expected.

And if they do find they can't manage then they always could do the honourable thing and leave the priesthood. As far as I can see there is no element of coercion on the part of the Church.

Of the many things you could choose to attack the RC over this just sounds pointless and silly.

I don't think it is pointless and silly! In the past some men were forced to become priests, especially in Ireland, I believe.

[jeremyp]

If someone freely chooses to work for an organisation which has certain restrictions on behaviour, are they being forced into that restricted behaviour, Floo?

Don't priests of all persuasions frequently talk about being "called by God"? A lot of them think this means they don't really have a choice.

[jeremyp]

Floo

You still give the impression of thinking that celibate means abstaining from sex. It does not - IN THIS CONTEXT - it means not being married. The context - which you have established - is the Roman Catholic Church. When the RC Church says, or uses the term celibate it means not married. Being married is a choice  - as is becoming a priest.

The state of celibacy has nothing to do with abstaining from sexual activity.

Under what circumstance in Catholic law is it permissible for a person to have sex?

A Catholic ban on priests getting married is an effective ban on them having sex.

[Brownie]

You are right there, jeremy, but as several of us have already said, no-one has to become a priest in the first place so celibacy is not forced on anyone.

Floo, no-one in Ireland was forced to be a priest, a man had to decide of his own free well, however in the past there was some coercion from family and church and it was considered a great honour and privilege to have a son go into the priesthood;  boys thought about doing just that from an early age, before they had had time to consider all their options. 

It was the same for girls becoming nuns.   How many of us on here could tell stories about Irish nuns who taught us or cared for us?  Hee hee, I'm saying nothing about that.

For both, sometimes it worked out fine and sometimes it didn't.

The culture was very different to that of the UK - and Ireland is now a very different place, thank goodness.

(Val on St Thads could tell you more about all that.)

[floo]

You are right there, jeremy, but as several of us have already said, no-one has to become a priest in the first place so celibacy is not forced on anyone.

Floo, no-one in Ireland was forced to be a priest, a man had to decide of his own free well, however in the past there was some coercion from family and church and it was considered a great honour and privilege to have a son go into the priesthood;  boys thought about doing just that from an early age, before they had had time to consider all their options. 

It was the same for girls becoming nuns.   How many of us on here could tell stories about Irish nuns who taught us or cared for us?  Hee hee, I'm saying nothing about that.

For both, sometimes it worked out fine and sometimes it didn't.

The culture was very different to that of the UK - and Ireland is now a very different place, thank goodness.

(Val on St Thads could tell you more about all that.)

I am of Irish descent on my father's side, so I KNOW for a fact that some men had pressure on them to become priests. My paternal grandmother was born a Catholic but her parents converted and became protestants. She was kidnapped several times by her Catholic grandparents. Her uncle was a Cardinal and he was one of the men expected to become a priest, as were quite a number of others whom she knew! Besides which, I have read some accounts over the years of priests, monks and nuns who were under pressure to submit themselves to god in that way.

[Hope]

Yes, if it is unreasonable, as forced celibacy is. Everyone should have a right to a consensual adult sex life if they so wish it.

If someone wished to be able to smoke at work, they wouldn't take a job at a fuel refinery, Floo.

As Brownie and others have pointed out, no-one is forced to be a priest - it is a choice that an individual makes.  It that includes celibacy as it does for a priest in the Roman Catholic Church, they have plenty of time to decide whether that is for them or not.  Note that as a non Roman Catholic Christian, I believe that it is a non-Biblical stricture which has no Biblibal basis - but I can understand why someone might choose to forego certain pleasures, either permanently or for a season, in order to be able to put their mind to a particular project or activity.

[Hope]

Floo

I really am not sure what you are trying to say here. I agree that the requirement for celibacy or abstention or whatever it actually is that the RC expect is nonsense, but if someone goes into the priesthood they do know that is what is expected.

Trent, I wonder whether Floo has some sort of repetitive condition that means that she asks the same questions and says the same thing on a rotating basis

[Hope]

I don't think it is pointless and silly! In the past some men were forced to become priests, especially in Ireland, I believe.

'You believe' ...

[floo]

Trent, I wonder whether Floo has some sort of repetitive condition that means that she asks the same questions and says the same thing on a rotating basis

And you don't repeat yourself of course, HA! HA!

[Hope]

Under what circumstance in Catholic law is it permissible for a person to have sex?

A couple of queries, jeremy.  1.  What do you mean by 'Catholic law'? 2.  Requirements on the issue differ depending on one's role in life; which role (if any) are you referring to?

A Catholic ban on priests getting married is an effective ban on them having sex.

HH explained the reasoning in a previous post.  I also believe that it is based on a misreading of 1 Corinthians 7 where Paul juxtapositions his own opinion in a particular situation with that set out by God. 

[Hope]

And you don't repeat yourself of course, HA! HA!

Floo, I very rarely start the same thread every few months and give the same reason for doing so.  Obviously, I repeat myself if asked the same question by more than one person - though I do try to couch the answer in different terms each time.

[floo]

Floo, I very rarely start the same thread every few months and give the same reason for doing so.  Obviously, I repeat myself if asked the same question by more than one person - though I do try to couch the answer in different terms each time.

Have I ever created a thread about Catholic Priests and celibacy before, I don't remember doing so?