Amber warning for democracy?

[Nearly Sane]

Article from the New York Times looking at the decline of belief in democracy

http://tinyurl.com/jyydbvr

[jeremyp]

I think part of the problem - here in the West, anyway - is the way politics are reported. The issues are no longer the story: the story is the political lives of the actors. Some examples:

I was at my parents' house watching the news on the telly on the Saturday before the US general election. In a report on the general election, the journalist listed about five of Hillary Clinton's policies as bullet points. My Dad said "that's the first time I've seen anybody report on what Clinton's policies actually are". All the election coverage was about "can Trump beat Clinton" and "what do the opinion polls say".

Reporting on Jeremy Corbyn is all about how incompetent he is or how much the Labour masses love/despise him. Almost none of it is about what he actually stands for.

So people could be forgiven for thinking politics is just another piece of reality TV and politicians are just another bunch of reality TV stars and it doesn't really matter what they do or how they got there as long as they are entertaining.

[Udayana]

Fully agree. But who can rule on how the media report politics? Especially considering social media with fake news and so on.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think part of the problem - here in the West, anyway - is the way politics are reported. The issues are no longer the story: the story is the political lives of the actors. Some examples:

I was at my parents' house watching the news on the telly on the Saturday before the US general election. In a report on the general election, the journalist listed about five of Hillary Clinton's policies as bullet points. My Dad said "that's the first time I've seen anybody report on what Clinton's policies actually are". All the election coverage was about "can Trump beat Clinton" and "what do the opinion polls say".

Reporting on Jeremy Corbyn is all about how incompetent he is or how much the Labour masses love/despise him. Almost none of it is about what he actually stands for.

So people could be forgiven for thinking politics is just another piece of reality TV and politicians are just another bunch of reality TV stars and it doesn't really matter what they do or how they got there as long as they are entertaining.

The solution is to sack Keunsberg, Robinson, Humphries, Webb and Co.

[Udayana]

hmm .. and replace Today with an extended version of The Archers that covers policy options?

[Hope]

I think part of the problem - here in the West, anyway - is the way politics are reported. The issues are no longer the story: the story is the political lives of the actors. Some examples:

I was at my parents' house watching the news on the telly on the Saturday before the US general election. In a report on the general election, the journalist listed about five of Hillary Clinton's policies as bullet points. My Dad said "that's the first time I've seen anybody report on what Clinton's policies actually are". All the election coverage was about "can Trump beat Clinton" and "what do the opinion polls say".

Reporting on Jeremy Corbyn is all about how incompetent he is or how much the Labour masses love/despise him. Almost none of it is about what he actually stands for.

So people could be forgiven for thinking politics is just another piece of reality TV and politicians are just another bunch of reality TV stars and it doesn't really matter what they do or how they got there as long as they are entertaining.

I think the problem is far more fundamental than that, jeremy.  Modern politics seems to be solely concerned with the short-term, seldom, if ever the long term.  As a result, people from all walks of life, all social groupings and all ages see it as having limited relevance to their lives which, in most cases, are long-term in nature.

[Jack Knave]

Article from the New York Times looking at the decline of belief in democracy

http://tinyurl.com/jyydbvr

What democracy? The people are waking up to the fact that the whole system is rigged to suit a small elite for their own benefits.

[Hope]

What democracy? The people are waking up to the fact that the whole system is rigged to suit a small elite for their own benefits.

Jack, you are so naive.

[L.A.]

What democracy? The people are waking up to the fact that the whole system is rigged to suit a small elite for their own benefits.

No Jack, that's called paranoia

[jeremyp]

I think the problem is far more fundamental than that, jeremy.  Modern politics seems to be solely concerned with the short-term, seldom, if ever the long term.  As a result, people from all walks of life, all social groupings and all ages see it as having limited relevance to their lives which, in most cases, are long-term in nature.

I think what you describe there is less fundamental than my thesis. I'm talking about the fundamental breakdown of democracy because the media are no longer reporting properly on the issues, they are reporting on what the politicians are doing.

By the way, I don't see any evidence of short termism in British politics at the moment. The big story is about something that isn't going to happen for at least two years but when it does happen will affect us for the rest of our lives. Say what you like about the Brexiteers, but they are not short termist.

[Walter]

you're right there Jeremyp

I'm a long termite.

[Jack Knave]

No Jack, that's called paranoia

No it's called the facts.

[Jack Knave]

I think what you describe there is less fundamental than my thesis. I'm talking about the fundamental breakdown of democracy because the media are no longer reporting properly on the issues, they are reporting on what the politicians are doing.

That's been true for over a century.

[ad_orientem]

What democracy? The people are waking up to the fact that the whole system is rigged to suit a small elite for their own benefits.

Indeed! That's why they're shitting their pants, because they've been finally found out.

[Aruntraveller]

Indeed! That's why they're shitting their pants, because they've been finally found out.

The broad left has been saying this for years. Your prediction that they've finally been found out is false. They were found our long ago. The systems and the electorate maintained the status quo. Despite the recent alleged 'upheavals' - for example Brexit & the Donald I see nothing that changes the underlying problems. In fact certainly in the case of the USA I think the recent elections will only magnify & maintain the problems.

[Nearly Sane]

The broad left has been saying this for years. Your prediction that they've finally been found out is false. They were found our long ago. The systems and the electorate maintained the status quo. Despite the recent alleged 'upheavals' - for example Brexit & the Donald I see nothing that changes the underlying problems. In fact certainly in the case of the USA I think the recent elections will only magnify & maintain the problems.

As I posted on the US election thread, with the possibility that Trump appoints a 3rd Goldman Sachs person


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_8mduTEvnU0

[torridon]

What democracy? The people are waking up to the fact that the whole system is rigged to suit a small elite for their own benefits.

Conspiracy theorist   

[torridon]

Article from the New York Times looking at the decline of belief in democracy

http://tinyurl.com/jyydbvr

Isn't it the rise in populism at the expense of liberal minded values ?  Not good for humanists who believe in the trajectory of human progress.  When the going gets tough liberal values are the first to go as we look to our own needs first.

[jakswan]

I think what you describe there is less fundamental than my thesis. I'm talking about the fundamental breakdown of democracy because the media are no longer reporting properly on the issues, they are reporting on what the politicians are doing.

By the way, I don't see any evidence of short termism in British politics at the moment. The big story is about something that isn't going to happen for at least two years but when it does happen will affect us for the rest of our lives. Say what you like about the Brexiteers, but they are not short termist.

I think an electorate get the politicians it deserves, if people don't make it their responsibility to discover policy and just vote on tribal lines then we get soundbite politics. I have heard 'we don't need to listen to experts now' in an attempt to mock Gove when that is based on an inaccurate soundbite.

[Jack Knave]

The broad left has been saying this for years. Your prediction that they've finally been found out is false. They were found our long ago. The systems and the electorate maintained the status quo. Despite the recent alleged 'upheavals' - for example Brexit & the Donald I see nothing that changes the underlying problems. In fact certainly in the case of the USA I think the recent elections will only magnify & maintain the problems.

There's a difference between the intellectuals seeing these things and the people, the masses doing so or starting to do so.

As for your comments on Brexit and Trump this is just the start, which is never necessarily a perfect move tot the ideal from the status quo. People don't have the perfect choices when the vote, they can only vote for what they are presented with.

[Jack Knave]

Conspiracy theorist   

Banding terms about explains nothing. 

I note your personal incredulity.

[Hope]

Indeed! That's why they're shitting their pants, because they've been finally found out.

Sorry, ad-o, they were found out when I was back in university, 40-odd years ago.  Remember that groups have been trying to get the EU to publish their annual accountsfor getting on for 25 years now; these and other groups have been highlighting the problems with systems such as the Common Agricultural Policy, the Fisheries policy, the farcical nature of the 2-base process that sees the EU hierarchy flitting between Strasbourg and Brussels for years - and more recently the structural instability and weakness of the Euro currency.  It isn't anything new.

[jeremyp]

I think an electorate get the politicians it deserves

Excepting quirks in the electoral system like the one that let Trump in despite his opponent polling more votes than any candidate in history except Obama in 2008.

if people don't make it their responsibility to discover policy and just vote on tribal lines then we get soundbite politics. I have heard 'we don't need to listen to experts now' in an attempt to mock Gove when that is based on an inaccurate soundbite.

I quite agree with that, except the media doesn't make it easy to discover policy and they love voting on tribal lines. Also, Gove knew exactly what he was doing when he uttered that soundbite.

[jakswan]

Excepting quirks in the electoral system like the one that let Trump in despite his opponent polling more votes than any candidate in history except Obama in 2008.
I quite agree with that, except the media doesn't make it easy to discover policy and they love voting on tribal lines. Also, Gove knew exactly what he was doing when he uttered that soundbite.

The soundbite I gave is a quote mine.

[jeremyp]

The soundbite I gave is a quote mine.

I know.

My suggestion is that Gove, an experienced politician knew exactly how it would be quote mined when he said it.