Amber warning for democracy?

[Aruntraveller]

There's a difference between the intellectuals seeing these things and the people, the masses doing so or starting to do so.

As for your comments on Brexit and Trump this is just the start, which is never necessarily a perfect move tot the ideal from the status quo. People don't have the perfect choices when the vote, they can only vote for what they are presented with.

Except, of course, the popular vote in the USA makes a nonsense of your premise. Even you can see that. If we have a majority for BREXIT in the UK which I accept (even though it was a majority obtained by continual lying) Then you surely can see that the USA did not in fact vote for Trump, his victory was a product of a system that inaccurately reflects the will of the electorate due to an anachronistic mechanism, namely the electoral college.

[Jack Knave]

Except, of course, the popular vote in the USA makes a nonsense of your premise. Even you can see that. If we have a majority for BREXIT in the UK which I accept (even though it was a majority obtained by continual lying) Then you surely can see that the USA did not in fact vote for Trump, his victory was a product of a system that inaccurately reflects the will of the electorate due to an anachronistic mechanism, namely the electoral college.

As for Brexit, this charge of lying by the Leave campaign is just sour grapes and a one sided and duplicitous look at things. The Remain lot lied and employed project fear, which, even though horrendous in its claims, failed to turn the voters to the Remain side and turned out to not be true, as the Leave campaign stated.

As for Trump that does prove my case because in "normal" times he would not even have  become a candidate for the GOP, let allow President. He would have been seen as a weirdo clown of a figure that people would have jeered at. But instead that "clown" was taken seriously by enough voters to kick a long standing politician with a long top grade record by a system that all accepted and had been well entrenched for some time.

[Aruntraveller]

As for Brexit, this charge of lying by the Leave campaign is just sour grapes and a one sided and duplicitous look at things. The Remain lot lied and employed project fear, which, even though horrendous in its claims, failed to turn the voters to the Remain side and turned out to not be true, as the Leave campaign stated.

As for Trump that does prove my case because in "normal" times he would not even have  become a candidate for the GOP, let allow President. He would have been seen as a weirdo clown of a figure that people would have jeered at. But instead that "clown" was taken seriously by enough voters to kick a long standing politician with a long top grade record by a system that all accepted and had been well entrenched for some time.

As usual avoiding my point. What else should I expect.

[Jack Knave]

As usual avoiding my point. What else should I expect.

No I didn't, I explained your error and wrong thinking. the fact that you couldn't accept it shows your personal incredulity on the matter.

[jeremyp]

As for Brexit, this charge of lying by the Leave campaign is just sour grapes and a one sided and duplicitous look at things.

The Brexiteers did lie. Nigel let-me-get-my-tongue-further-up-Trump's-arse Farage admitted as much the day after the vote.

The Remain lot lied and employed project fear, which, even though horrendous in its claims, failed to turn the voters to the Remain side and turned out to not be true, as the Leave campaign stated.

Don't count your chickens. Nobody thought we would be leaving it till March to trigger article 50.

As for Trump that does prove my case because in "normal" times he would not even have  become a candidate for the GOP, let allow President. He would have been seen as a weirdo clown of a figure that people would have jeered at. But instead that "clown" was taken seriously by enough voters to kick a long standing politician with a long top grade record by a system that all accepted and had been well entrenched for some time.

Partly because the media failed to live up to democratic ideals.

[Jack Knave]

The Brexiteers did lie. Nigel let-me-get-my-tongue-further-up-Trump's-arse Farage admitted as much the day after the vote.
Don't count your chickens. Nobody thought we would be living it till March to trigger article 50.
Partly because the media failed to live up to democratic ideals.

That claim was by Vote Leave, UKIP were with Leave.EU.

The only chickens I see are the Remoaners!!!

What has that got to do with the media? What planet are you on, Jeremy?

[jeremyp]

That claim was by Vote Leave, UKIP were with Leave.EU.

I fail to see how that excuses the lie.

The only chickens I see are the Remoaners!!!

Avoid the point why don't you.

What has that got to do with the media? What planet are you on, Jeremy?

For a democracy to function, the people have to be well informed. The media would rather whip up xenophobia and hatred because they sell more papers that way.

[Aruntraveller]

No I didn't, I explained your error and wrong thinking. the fact that you couldn't accept it shows your personal incredulity on the matter.

No. I was pointing out that Brexit was won by a majority hence that will happen in some, as yet, undefined manner. A similar result in the USA ended up with the loser as the winner and that the vote for the status quo (which is what you paint Hilary as - although I would argue that trump is actually that) ended up with the loser winning. It is only the malfunctioning mechanism of the electoral college that gave Trump his victory. No personal incredulity involved - but thanks for the ad hom.

[Jack Knave]

I fail to see how that excuses the lie.

Because you linked it to Farage.

For a democracy to function, the people have to be well informed. The media would rather whip up xenophobia and hatred because they sell more papers that way.

Well informed by who? The lying Remoaners, the elite, the establishment and these so called wanking experts, who have never got anything right? I think not!!!

[Jack Knave]

No. I was pointing out that Brexit was won by a majority hence that will happen in some, as yet, undefined manner. A similar result in the USA ended up with the loser as the winner and that the vote for the status quo (which is what you paint Hilary as - although I would argue that trump is actually that) ended up with the loser winning. It is only the malfunctioning mechanism of the electoral college that gave Trump his victory. No personal incredulity involved - but thanks for the ad hom.

This started by you answering one of my posts. Now I see you have reframed the issue by moving the goalposts in order to get the answer to your issue that you want. What you have answered isn't what I was talking about. 

[Walter]

I fail to see how that excuses the lie.
Avoid the point why don't you.
For a democracy to function, the people have to be well informed. The media would rather whip up xenophobia and hatred because they sell more papers that way.

Jeremy
you fail to understand something very important . I and many others chose to vote out as soon as we knew we could . I for one knew exactly how I would vote long before the politicians started with their lies . I  had been waiting for the opportunity for years , someone somewhere said they would rather eat cabbage soup for years than stay in the 'union' , that includes me.
The lie ,as you call it was irrelevant to many people.

If you've got some nice French bread. Dip it 

[Aruntraveller]

This started by you answering one of my posts. Now I see you have reframed the issue by moving the goalposts in order to get the answer to your issue that you want. What you have answered isn't what I was talking about. 

Nope. You made a claim about the way the masses are voting which is simply not born out by the example of the USA.

[Nearly Sane]

Nope. You made a claim about the way the masses are voting which is simply not born out by the example of the USA.

Just to note that Jack Knave has been suspended for 7 days, see link, so there will not be a reply for that time.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=6939.50

[jeremyp]

Jeremy
you fail to understand something very important . I and many others chose to vote out as soon as we knew we could . I for one knew exactly how I would vote long before the politicians started with their lies . I  had been waiting for the opportunity for years,

Yes but how did you form an opinion about the EU?

someone somewhere said they would rather eat cabbage soup for years than stay in the 'union' , that includes me.

Which is an incredibly selfish attitude. You may not mind living on cabbage soup for the next ten years, but I and most other people would rather not.

[Walter]

Yes but how did you form an opinion about the EU?
Which is an incredibly selfish attitude. You may not mind living on cabbage soup for the next ten years, but I and most other people would rather not.

Jeremyp
my opinion was formed by my natural desire to be independent and self supporting on a personal level, which I extended to a national level .
As for being selfish you are probably right about that however it turns out many others voted out too. I cant explain why they did that though ,you would have to ask them.
I know this is not the same but a principle is involved here. When I got divorced I was prepared to take a hit just to get rid of the thing I didn't like and expected life to be a bit harder for a while . It was   but things improved when I applied myself to the new situation  and just got on with it.     

[ad_orientem]

Cabbage soup is nice.

[torridon]

Weirdo

[Walter]

Cabbage soup is nice.

with a splash of malt vinegar,   lovely.

[jeremyp]

Jeremyp
my opinion was formed by my natural desire to be independent and self supporting on a personal level, which I extended to a national level .

That is wishy washy nonsense. My opinion was formed by my recognition that we accomplish more if we work together as a team which
 I extend to the national level. See it works just as well

Why do you think your independence is threatened by the EU? Answer: the media tells you that.

As for being selfish you are probably right about that however it turns out many others voted out too.

Why does that make it OK?

I cant explain why they did that though ,you would have to ask them.
I know this is not the same but a principle is involved here. When I got divorced I was prepared to take a hit just to get rid of the thing I didn't like and expected life to be a bit harder for a while . It was   but things improved when I applied myself to the new situation  and just got on with it.   

But this is like you telling everybody to get divorced.

[jeremyp]

Cabbage soup is nice.

Not if you have to eat it for every meal.

[Walter]

That is wishy washy nonsense. My opinion was formed by my recognition that we accomplish more if we work together as a team which
 I extend to the national level. See it works just as well

Why do you think your independence is threatened by the EU? Answer: the media tells you that.Why does that make it OK?
But this is like you telling everybody to get divorced.

the media had no influence on my decision.
And in your arrogance you presume you have the right to state it as fact .  Wind your neck in, eh!.
 You can work in a team if you want, if it satisfies your insecure need to be 'part of something' that can 'achieve more' together.
I used to teach this corporate bollocks to new recruits in the finance industry for many years to the point of loosing my self respect, the more they achieved as a team , the more I earned .Very nice .
The divorce thing? I was just pointing out that I saw similarities , you can do what you like with that bit of trivia.
however if you are contemplating divorce ill just say this , the older you are the more difficult it is to adapt to change , so think carefully. I would hate to think of you stumbling about in the dark all confused and bewildered trying to find the toilet in the middle of the night at a mates house while you get yourself back on your feet.

no offence...and
best wishes












 

[jeremyp]

the media had no influence on my decision.

Rubbish.
 

You can work in a team if you want, if it satisfies your insecure need to be 'part of something' that can 'achieve more' together.
I used to teach this corporate bollocks to new recruits in the finance industry for many years to the point of loosing my self respect, the more they achieved as a team , the more I earned .Very nice .

This is a joke right? The modern world was built by teams, not individuals.

The divorce thing? I was just pointing out that I saw similarities

And I was pointing out why the analogy is flawed.

[Walter]

Rubbish.
 This is a joke right? The modern world was built by teams, not individuals.
And I was pointing out why the analogy is flawed.

you have a very naïve view of the world , so i'll leave it at that .