Author Topic: Magic! A Logical Impossibility  (Read 9122 times)

Sriram

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Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« on: December 11, 2016, 04:09:00 PM »
Hi  everyone,

In another thread, torridon has argued that while strange natural phenomena are merely 'unexplained', anything that is a logical impossibility is...'Magic'.

What do we mean by a logical impossibility? Many things are logical impossibilities till such time that we get used to them and they become logical in our minds.

The fact that we are living on a rock that is flying through space around the sun at 67000 miles per hour and the sun itself is flying around the galaxy at 220 kms per second... is not very logical. I am sure  most people, even philosophers and scientists of that day when it was discovered, would have found this a logical impossibility. But it is nevertheless a fact.

There are many other such logical impossibilities....

Wasn't X-ray a logical impossibility before it was discovered?
Isn't a chemical molecule DNA) replicating itself and containing the entire information for formation of complex organisms, a logical impossibility?
Aren't parallel universes existing just inches from us a logical impossibility?
Isn't the entire universe arising out of a String vibrating in eleven dimensions a logical impossibility? 
Isn't the Singularity arising from nothing, a logical impossibility?
Isn't the idea of the universe expanding dramatically in an instant, a logical impossibility? 
Isn't the fact that elementary particles influence one another instantaneously across the universe (non local action) a logical impossibility?

None of these  things are very logical...but we regard them as facts or at least as meaningful theories. All of them are bizarre and completely against any logic. But once we know that they are fact or that some respected scientists have accepted them as a possibility, we start accepting them as logical.

So...using torridon's interpretation, most of the universe is really and truly....Magic!

In other words, what we consider as 'logic' is not something written in stone or something that is fixed in time.  It is not simply 2+2=4. Logic is much more than that and much more flexible too.

Logic also evolves, adapts and expands to fit the requirements of our mind. It is just a product of our intellect and as our experiences expand our intellect expands and....our logic also expands.

Cheers.

Sriram
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 04:11:49 PM by Sriram »

Hope

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2016, 04:55:33 PM »
Hi  everyone,

In another thread, torridon has argued that while strange natural phenomena are merely 'unexplained', anything that is a logical impossibility is...'Magic'.
What concerns me is the assumption that inexplicable or unexplained 'strange natural phenomena' have to be natural.
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Walter

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2016, 05:02:31 PM »
get back in your box, you two.

wigginhall

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2016, 05:32:37 PM »
I don't get why those things are illogical.   It may surprise us that we are on a rock whizzing round a star, which is itself part of a galaxy, which contains billions of stars, but it doesn't seem to defy logic.   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2016, 06:30:47 PM »
Hi  everyone,

In another thread, torridon has argued that while strange natural phenomena are merely 'unexplained', anything that is a logical impossibility is...'Magic'.

Cheers.

Sriram
Cheers to you sir. I think a lot of the problems of logic stem from it's appropriation by the atheist fraternity.
The popular science journalist, and let's face it many on here swear by them, Arthur C Clarke stated that any sufficiently advanced technology must equate, to those who don't possess it, to magic.
I sometimes suggest to them that one day science might be raising people from the dead (in outpatients clinics?) and human virgin births are already possible.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 06:34:47 PM by Emergence-The musical »

Walter

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2016, 06:53:38 PM »
Cheers to you sir. I think a lot of the problems of logic stem from it's appropriation by the atheist fraternity.
The popular science journalist, and let's face it many on here swear by them, Arthur C Clarke stated that any sufficiently advanced technology must equate, to those who don't possess it, to magic.
I sometimes suggest to them that one day science might be raising people from the dead (in outpatients clinics?) and human virgin births are already possible.
are you for real?

Gordon

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2016, 07:07:37 PM »
Good heavens, Sriram - it seems to me this is an example of what the philosopher Stephen Laws would describe as 'going nuclear': to start with you've fallen into the fallacy of equivocation in relation to terms such as 'magic' and 'logic' which are being wrongly used and with different implications or meanings.

It would probably be best to drop 'logic' since you aren't talking about logical contradictions: the open door that is shut or the square circle. In this respect you seem to be talking about things that are underpinned by justified but provisional knowledge, albeit some knowledge will be dependable enough - such as the science supporting aviation.

Then there is 'magic', but you aren't talking about stage magicians where we know there is an explanation even if we can't work out what it is. Neither are we talking about stuff we don't yet fully understand but there are sufficient provisional theories or knowledge to drive forward incremental on-going study: the development of some aspects of medical science is an example. So, if we borrow the Forum time machine (handy for thought experiments like this) and bring someone from, say, the first half of the 17th century forward to now and they saw this computer or a jumbo jet going overhead it may well seem to them like 'magic' - but we know otherwise, hence the well-known quote from Arthur C Clarke.

So, when the term 'magic' is used here it probably as a pejorative term, like 'woo', to imply that there is sufficient knowledge to rebut whatever the claim is, or that the claim is simply fallacious or incoherent and can be rejected.

So:

The fact that we are living on a rock that is flying through space around the sun at 67000 miles per hour and the sun itself is flying around the galaxy at 220 kms per second... is not very logical.

It isn't 'logical', as noted above, and the speed of the Earth as it orbits the Sun is around 1,000 mph (not 67,000 mph) - this is an example of justified knowledge.

Quote
I am sure  most people, even philosophers and scientists of that day when it was discovered, would have found this a logical impossibility. But it is nevertheless a fact.

Indeed it is - but to establish such facts is an incremental process via theories, methods and investigation (in this case despite the interference of religious thinking in earlier times).

Quote
There are many other such logical impossibilities....

Wasn't X-ray a logical impossibility before it was discovered?
Isn't a chemical molecule DNA) replicating itself and containing the entire information for formation of complex organisms, a logical impossibility?

Not illogical, but while these might be surprising to earlier generations of scientists who weren't around to see the incremental progress involved they are unremarkable today.
   
Quote
Aren't parallel universes existing just inches from us a logical impossibility?
Isn't the entire universe arising out of a String vibrating in eleven dimensions a logical impossibility? 
Isn't the Singularity arising from nothing, a logical impossibility?
Isn't the idea of the universe expanding dramatically in an instant, a logical impossibility? 
Isn't the fact that elementary particles influence one another instantaneously across the universe (non local action) a logical impossibility?

Not 'logically impossible' but these are areas where there is more to be done, which may involve either rejecting these ideas should the basis for doing so become clear: meantime the work goes on and 'we don't yet know' applies.

Quote
None of these  things are very logical...but we regard them as facts or at least as meaningful theories. All of them are bizarre and completely against any logic. But once we know that they are fact or that some respected scientists have accepted them as a possibility, we start accepting them as logical.

Leaving aside your mild hysteria, these theories aren't just guesses: they are hypothesis based on provisional knowledge that will either be rejected where the evidence contradicts them, leading to revised theories, or they will be provisionally supported. As yet there are insufficient grounds to accept them but investigations continue in much the same way that, for example, miasma theory was rejected in favour of germ theory in the late 19th century.   

Quote
So...using torridon's interpretation, most of the universe is really and truly....Magic!

Nope, and I doubt your interpretation of what Torridon has said in numerous posts is correct.

Quote
In other words, what we consider as 'logic' is not something written in stone or something that is fixed in time.  It is not simply 2+2=4. Logic is much more than that and much more flexible too.

Logic also evolves, adapts and expands to fit the requirements of our mind. It is just a product of our intellect and as our experiences expand our intellect expands and....our logic also expands.

Nope - your use of 'logic' is wrong: I think you mean 'knowledge'. 
 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 07:11:40 PM by Gordon »

jeremyp

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2016, 07:17:24 PM »

What do we mean by a logical impossibility? Many things are logical impossibilities till such time that we get used to them and they become logical in our minds.
This is incorrect. A logical impossibility is something that deductively cannot be true. It is logically impossible to write out the square root of two as a ratio of two whole numbers. We know this because there is a cast iron deductive argument that proves it.

I don't think Torridon was correct in his definition of magic. By "logically impossible" he probably meant "contrary to physical law".

Quote
The fact that we are living on a rock that is flying through space around the sun at 67000 miles per hour and the sun itself is flying around the galaxy at 220 kms per second... is not very logical. I am sure  most people, even philosophers and scientists of that day when it was discovered, would have found this a logical impossibility. But it is nevertheless a fact.
You seem to be confusing ignorance and logic. People might have thought of this as impossible, but for it to be logically impossible, they would have needed to come up with a proof.

Quote
There are many other such logical impossibilities....

Wasn't X-ray a logical impossibility before it was discovered?
Isn't a chemical molecule DNA) replicating itself and containing the entire information for formation of complex organisms, a logical impossibility?
Aren't parallel universes existing just inches from us a logical impossibility?
Isn't the entire universe arising out of a String vibrating in eleven dimensions a logical impossibility? 
Isn't the Singularity arising from nothing, a logical impossibility?
Isn't the idea of the universe expanding dramatically in an instant, a logical impossibility? 
Isn't the fact that elementary particles influence one another instantaneously across the universe (non local action) a logical impossibility?
Most of those things are not logical impossibilities. Most of them are just you expressing incredulity.
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Hope

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2016, 08:06:35 PM »
get back in your box, you two.
Which one, the 'physically impossible to fit into' box, or the 'logically possible' box?  ;)
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Walter

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2016, 08:21:04 PM »
Which one, the 'physically impossible to fit into' box, or the 'logically possible' box?  ;)
don't get smart, just get in your box. ;)

Sriram

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2016, 06:33:44 AM »
Cheers to you sir. I think a lot of the problems of logic stem from it's appropriation by the atheist fraternity.
The popular science journalist, and let's face it many on here swear by them, Arthur C Clarke stated that any sufficiently advanced technology must equate, to those who don't possess it, to magic.
I sometimes suggest to them that one day science might be raising people from the dead (in outpatients clinics?) and human virgin births are already possible.


I agree with you...Emergence -The musical!  :)

Sriram

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2016, 06:40:07 AM »
Hi everyone,

Logic is about reasoning. It is not a panacea.  Reasoning (and logic) obviously depend upon our background information, cultural base and social acceptance (in the group where we belong).  Reasoning or logic is not therefore something independent of our natural limitations and background. What may seem reasonable to one person may seem unreasonable to someone else.

Logic and reasoning could be mathematical and precise in certain situations but this need not always be true. Reasoning and logic could be very general and depend on ones experience, culture and what we are ready to accept as true.

The idea of God itself is very logical and reasonable to most people in the world...while our atheist friends find it completely illogical and unreasonable. Most atheists and materialists think that the universe arising by chance from nothing, and the ideas of Emergence are very logical and reasonable...while most other people find these ideas completely unreasonable.

So...something can seem completely illogical and still be true.  Something could seem perfectly logical and still be untrue. The examples I have given above are relevant here. You can add some more examples if you want.

My point is that...most of our current ideas of the universe would have seemed completely illogical and unreasonable to people  (even scientists) of centuries ago. Einstein himself considered some of the QM ideas as bizarre. He did not accept and jokingly called the instantaneous non local influence of elementary particles as 'Spooky action at a distance'.

It is therefore naive to have a very rigid view of what can be true and what cannot be. The world can be far more complex and 'weird' than we can imagine. 100 years from today, many of our ideas could change dramatically. Many more bizarre ideas that we cannot even imagine today may be a normal part of our understanding of the world.

You never know... maybe even spirit, soul, after-life, reincarnation, karma and God...could become normal, well accepted, logical and very reasonable explanations for phenomena, hundred years from today. ;)  Maybe all scientists at that time will be following the well accepted science of Spirituality and doing yoga, chanting mantras, visiting churches/temples, meditating...like there is no tomorrow!  I seriously think this is a distinct possibility given the direction new science is taking in some quarters!  :D

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: Gordon...the earth is orbiting the sun at 18.5 miles per second (30 kms per second). this works out to 67000 miles per hour.   Not 1000 mph as you mention.   

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/41-our-solar-system/the-earth/orbit/91-at-what-speed-does-the-earth-move-around-the-sun-beginner



Gordon

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2016, 07:50:21 AM »
Hi everyone,

Logic is about reasoning. It is not a panacea.  Reasoning (and logic) obviously depend upon our background information, cultural base and social acceptance (in the group where we belong).  Reasoning or logic is not therefore something independent of our natural limitations and background. What may seem reasonable to one person may seem unreasonable to someone else.

Logic and reasoning could be mathematical and precise in certain situations but this need not always be true. Reasoning and logic could be very general and depend on ones experience, culture and what we are ready to accept as true.

You seem to be arguing for 'subjective logic', which sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Quote
PS: Gordon...the earth is orbiting the sun at 18.5 miles per second (30 kms per second). this works out to 67000 miles per hour.   Not 1000 mph as you mention.   

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/41-our-solar-system/the-earth/orbit/91-at-what-speed-does-the-earth-move-around-the-sun-beginner

Yes - you're right and I was wrong: I was (wrongly) thinking of the speed of the Earth's rotation on its axis whereas you made it clear you were referring to its orbital speed around the Sun.

Udayana

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2016, 10:26:53 AM »
The whole thread is based on a misunderstanding and misuse of logic. What is a "logical impossibility"? - usually just a mundane error - nothing like magic.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Sriram

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2016, 04:29:46 PM »
You seem to be arguing for 'subjective logic', which sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Yes - you're right and I was wrong: I was (wrongly) thinking of the speed of the Earth's rotation on its axis whereas you made it clear you were referring to its orbital speed around the Sun.


I have already said that there is nothing universal about logic. It depends on our background and training. Whatever we have been taught to accept as reasonable.

God and after-life can seem perfectly logical and reasonable to many people. Chance and random events may seem perfectly logical to others. 

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2016, 04:31:21 PM »

I have already said that there is nothing universal about logic. It depends on our background and training. Whatever we have been taught to accept as reasonable.

God and after-life can seem perfectly logical and reasonable to many people. Chance and random events may seem perfectly logical to others.

So logical syllogisms are just cultural?

Gordon

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2016, 04:35:55 PM »

I have already said that there is nothing universal about logic. It depends on our background and training. Whatever we have been taught to accept as reasonable.

That is illogical.

Quote
God and after-life can seem perfectly logical and reasonable to many people. Chance and random events may seem perfectly logical to others.

As it the above.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 06:33:08 PM by Gordon »

torridon

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2016, 05:49:44 PM »
Hi  everyone,

In another thread, torridon has argued that while strange natural phenomena are merely 'unexplained', anything that is a logical impossibility is...'Magic'.

What do we mean by a logical impossibility? Many things are logical impossibilities till such time that we get used to them and they become logical in our minds.

You are simply unclear on the difference between 'unexplained' and 'inexplicable'. We don't understand dark matter yet, but nobody claims it is magic, nobody claims it is inexplicable; what we do say is that it is currently unexplained.

....

torridon

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2016, 05:54:39 PM »

I have already said that there is nothing universal about logic. It depends on our background and training. Whatever we have been taught to accept as reasonable.

God and after-life can seem perfectly logical and reasonable to many people. Chance and random events may seem perfectly logical to others.

Just plain wrong.  You are mixing up logic with apparent reasonableness. Here is some logic : two plus two equals four; now that expresses a logical truth that is universal, applicable in all languages, in all cultures, in all times.

wigginhall

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2016, 05:56:22 PM »
Yes, Sriram is using the word 'logic' in an odd way.  Well, he can do that, but it just produces confusion.
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jeremyp

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2016, 06:13:43 PM »

I have already said that there is nothing universal about logic. It depends on our background and training. Whatever we have been taught to accept as reasonable.
That's clearly false.

Quote
God and after-life can seem perfectly logical and reasonable to many people. Chance and random events may seem perfectly logical to others.
"seem logical" and "is logical" are two different things.
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Udayana

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2016, 07:34:21 PM »
Just plain wrong.  You are mixing up logic with apparent reasonableness. Here is some logic : two plus two equals four; now that expresses a logical truth that is universal, applicable in all languages, in all cultures, in all times.

Eh? "2+2 ..." is not logic. It is a tautology from number theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 07:41:09 PM by Udayana »
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2016, 10:07:14 PM »
Most atheists and materialists think that the universe arising by chance from nothing, ............................very logical and reasonable...

Which atheists and materialists think that?
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Sriram

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2016, 08:57:59 AM »



Mathematical logic is only one type of logic. It is not everything.

Logic is about reason. As I have mentioned, many things may be logical but not necessarily true...and many things may be illogical but could be true. All the instances  I have mentioned in the OP are examples.

torridon

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Re: Magic! A Logical Impossibility
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2016, 10:47:16 AM »


Mathematical logic is only one type of logic. It is not everything.

Logic is about reason. As I have mentioned, many things may be logical but not necessarily true...and many things may be illogical but could be true. All the instances  I have mentioned in the OP are examples.

You are just massaging the meaning of the word 'logic' to suit your own private view.  That things might appear logical or illogical to us is more about the deficit in our comprehension.  A logical proposition is either valid or it is not valid, it matters not a jot what the cultural context of people arguing about it is.  Truth is not relative in the end.