So SNP were spinning on austerity

[Nearly Sane]

We had a UK-wide 'EU' referendum; we ought to have a UK-wide 'Scottish independence' referendum.  Have to say that I have no idea what the outcome would be.

So there should have been a USSR referendum on the independence of the Baltic States, and an EU referendum on UK Brexit?

[Hope]

So there should have been a USSR referendum on the independence of the Baltic States, and an EU referendum on UK Brexit?

USSR Referendum re: the Baltic States - there was no referendum in the first place (I suspect that there was no mechanism for it to occur), so that is a rather pointless example.
EU Referendum re: UK EC membership - Does the EU have a mechanism for EU-wide referenda?

The reason why I suggested that there ought to be a UK-wide referendum si9mply because there will be a whole host of issues that will need to be resolved before one part of the UK is able to leave the Union.  There are probably more elements to untie in this set-up than there are between the EU and the UK.

[ProfessorDavey]

EU referendum on UK Brexit?

So according to Jakswan's rather bizarre argument on IndyRef consistency dictates that the rEU should have a referendum on brexit which over-rules that in the UK. So if the rEU votes that we should stay, we would have to.

[Nearly Sane]

USSR Referendum re: the Baltic States - there was no referendum in the first place (I suspect that there was no mechanism for it to occur), so that is a rather pointless example.
EU Referendum re: UK EC membership - Does the EU have a mechanism for EU-wide referenda?

So it's not anything to do with a principle?  If not then what's he argument for your position?

[Hope]

So it's not anything to do with a principle?  If not then what's he argument for your position?

Sorry, NS - I started to add more to my post before you had replied to it.

[Nearly Sane]

Sorry, NS - I started to add more to my post before you had replied to it.

So if the principle is that affects the UK then it's the same for the EU. Your idea that it is somehow related to complexity needs more work, and more evidence than your simple assertion. You need to think this out a bit more.

[Gordon]

On the back of the June disaster why don't England & Wales just secede from the current UK state then they're out of the EU and they can leave the current legal state to us and N.I. - they can call themselves UK2 and take the monarchy with them and we (the official UK) can sort out the details with rEU while walls are built around every port and airport in England and Wales.

As credible as the current Brexit shambles 

[Sebastian Toe]

We had a UK-wide 'EU' referendum; we ought to have a UK-wide 'Scottish independence' referendum.  Have to say that I have no idea what the outcome would be.

We didn't though have an EU-wide referendum on whether GB should leave or not, did we?
How would you have felt if GB voted overwhelmingly one way and the rest of the EU the other?

[jakswan]

Against their consent, when the people people of Scotland had voted to remain in the UK - doesn't sound very democratic to me.

It was a joke, although it would be valid if it was UK wide. Not going to happen.  I do think we would be better off without Scotland though.

[jakswan]

So according to Jakswan's rather bizarre argument on IndyRef consistency dictates that the rEU should have a referendum on brexit which over-rules that in the UK. So if the rEU votes that we should stay, we would have to.

That is not comparable, Turkey being part of EU is, I.e. EU gets to decide who is in EU providing there is democratic mandate from that countrys electorate.

[ProfessorDavey]

That is not comparable, Turkey being part of EU is, I.e. EU gets to decide who is in EU providing there is democratic mandate from that countrys electorate.

It is entirely comparable - and mentioning Turkey isn' relevant as Turkey aren't part of the EU.

You suggested that the rUK should have a referendum that would over-ride the decision of Scotland in their own referendum (in your view that although Scotland voted to remain in the UK, they should be kicked out if rUK voted that way in their referendum).

So the exactly equivalent situation for the UK and the EU is that the rEU should have a referendum that would over-ride the decision of UK in their own referendum. So in this case even though the UK voted to leave the EU, they should be required to remain in the EU if rEU voted that way in their referendum.

[Nearly Sane]

It is entirely comparable - and mentioning Turkey isn' relevant as Turkey aren't part of the EU.

You suggested that the rUK should have a referendum that would over-ride the decision of Scotland in their own referendum (in your view that although Scotland voted to remain in the UK, they should be kicked out if rUK voted that way in their referendum).

So the exactly equivalent situation for the UK and the EU is that the rEU should have a referendum that would over-ride the decision of UK in their own referendum. So in this case even though the UK voted to leave the EU, they should be required to remain in the EU if rEU voted that way in their referendum.

I think jakswan is envisaging a situation where you could 'throw' a coountry out against their voting to stay but not vote to keep them if they voted out.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think jakswan is envisaging a situation where you could 'throw' a coountry out against their voting to stay but not vote to keep them if they voted out.

Muddled thinking - but we expect nothing less from our friend Jakswan on the EU.

[Nearly Sane]

Muddled thinking - but we expect nothing less from our friend Jakswan on the EU.

As a proposal in principle, it has cogency. Practicality is another matter.

[jakswan]

It is entirely comparable - and mentioning Turkey isn' relevant as Turkey aren't part of the EU.

You suggested that the rUK should have a referendum that would over-ride the decision of Scotland in their own referendum (in your view that although Scotland voted to remain in the UK, they should be kicked out if rUK voted that way in their referendum).

So the exactly equivalent situation for the UK and the EU is that the rEU should have a referendum that would over-ride the decision of UK in their own referendum. So in this case even though the UK voted to leave the EU, they should be required to remain in the EU if rEU voted that way in their referendum.

No, I'm saying a UK wide vote not a rUK vote. Turkey is comparable, lets try a hypothetical, lets say an EU country elects a far right party that is racist, homophobic, nationalistic  (not saying the SNP are this) etc the rEU would have the right to decide if they are kept in the EU or kicked out. A referendum would be a valid method for doing this?

This is tongue in cheek I do think Scotland / rUK would both be better of split but I'm not really advocating that we have a UK wide vote.

[ProfessorDavey]

No, I'm saying a UK wide vote not a rUK vote. Turkey is comparable, lets try a hypothetical, lets say an EU country elects a far right party that is racist, homophobic, nationalistic  (not saying the SNP are this) etc the rEU would have the right to decide if they are kept in the EU or kicked out. A referendum would be a valid method for doing this?

No Turkey isn't relevant because it isn't part of the EU, while Scotland is part of the UK.

If a country infringed the fundamental rules that are required for EU membership then I think it would be possible for them to be thrown out - but that should never be decided by a referendum but by judicial process on the basis of applying EU law.

[jakswan]

No Turkey isn't relevant because it isn't part of the EU, while Scotland is part of the UK.

If a country infringed the fundamental rules that are required for EU membership then I think it would be possible for them to be thrown out - but that should never be decided by a referendum but by judicial process on the basis of applying EU law.

OK that is your opinion I have mine.

[ProfessorDavey]

OK that is your opinion I have mine.

I doubt it - I'm pretty sure that somewhere is the huge mass of paperwork associated with the treaties of the EU will be sections on sanction for countries that breach the fundamental principles of those treaties (i.e. break the rules of membership). Deciding on whether a country has breached and the sanction (including presumably having its membership status revoked) is a judicial matter.

We don't decision on the outcome of judicial cases via electoral referendums - nope we decide them via the judicial process and the courts.

[Nearly Sane]

I doubt it - I'm pretty sure that somewhere is the huge mass of paperwork associated with the treaties of the EU will be sections on sanction for countries that breach the fundamental principles of those treaties (i.e. break the rules of membership). Deciding on whether a country has breached and the sanction (including presumably having its membership status revoked) is a judicial matter.

We don't decision on the outcome of judicial cases via electoral referendums - nope we decide them via the judicial process and the courts.

Except you phrased it that 'it should' happen that way not that it would. Jakswan's position is that it would not be wrong to have such a referendum is not about current practicalities, and neither is your position if you state 'should'.

Your above post is irrelevant in that case.