Author Topic: The Illusion of Self  (Read 50574 times)

torridon

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The Illusion of Self
« on: December 18, 2016, 08:38:03 AM »
Not long ago we would have considered the idea of driverless cars laughable science fiction.  Driverless Uber taxis are now a reality on the streets of Pittsburgh and they are being rolled out in San Francisco.  Sriram is fond of using car/driver analogy to illustrate the relationship between body/soul.  I'll suggest we can use the Uber model to understand why the concept of illusory self is truer.

In an evolutionary parallel we could liken your car in the garage to an organism in the PreCambrian.  The earliest creatures were deaf, dumb and blind.  Now we have cars that don't need a human guide because we have endowed them with visual sensors and software of their own to make sense of that information.  This parallels similar developments in the Cambrian explosion.

An Uber taxi now does not need a driver because it can drive itself; how much more sophisticated is a human body than a driverless car ?  A human body has autonomy - it drives itself without the need for a separate driver.

Consider this : we don't yet have the technology  to do this well, but suppose the artificial intelligence team at Google developed a holographic virtual driver projection in the driving seat.  I would put money on it that taxis with an apparent virtual driver would get more rides than those with an empty driver seat.  This acknowledges a curiosity of human nature, that we would quickly accept and build confidence in a virtual driver despite knowing that it is a hologram.  In the same way, humans of the future will fall in love with their domestic synths.  The same phenomenon is demonstrated by the rubber hand illusion, in which we can easily be induced into accepting and experiencing a false and unconnected apparent limb as an actual limb.

The self is an emergent property property of the body rather like a virtual driver would be created by the car.  I suggest that the concept of a virtual self, a projection courtesy of proprioception, an apparent driver for the human body, is truer to evidence and less problematic than traditional notions of intangible inner beings occupying a body temporarily. Cognitive science has shown us for instance that the conscious self is not really in control, just as a virtual Uber driver would not really be in control.  Real decision making goes on before and underneath conscious awareness; conscious awareness follows retrospectively, almost as an afterthought. An emergent, apparent self, raises no problems explaining how immaterial beings could interact with matter. An emergent, virtual self, is consistent with the observation that the self dissolves on going to sleep, is compromised by various brain pathologies and disappears altogether when the body dies.  An emergent, virtual self, is consistent with the observation that the development of the self mirrors the development of the body - a two year old for instance has not yet developed a full on form of consciousness that incorporates self awareness - are we supposed to believe that a two year old has not got its soul yet ?

An emergent virtual self might be counter to all our traditional intuitions, but it demolishes at a stroke a host of inconsistencies that the physical sciences have thrown up.   A body with a virtual self would have a competitive advantage over one without such, just as surely as Uber taxis with a hologrammatic virtual driver would get more rides than one without.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 08:52:01 AM by torridon »

Sriram

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2016, 08:57:30 AM »
torridon,

You're missing the whole point. The driverless car did not evolve by itself through some random variations and environmental factors. It has been produced through decades of effort by Intelligent human beings. The car has evolved to become driverless only because of humans. There are no emergent properties that arose automatically. All properties have been introduced into the car at various stages of its evolution/development, only by humans.

Second point is that there is no such thing as a driverless car. All the programs and sensors and other stuff have been put in place only by humans. Humans are driving the car indirectly. If anything goes wrong,  the mistake will not get automatically rectified through some natural selection process. It has to be rectified only by some human being.

Once again the point I made in the Karma thread (I think) about robots, becomes relevant. If 'intelligent' robots or cars could not sense the existence of humans around them for some reason, they will imagine precisely what we assume about biological evolution. That it is all due to random variation and that some Emergent Properties arise automatically to contribute to complexity. Which in reality, does not happen at all.

Cheers.

Sriram
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 09:06:55 AM by Sriram »

Alan Burns

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2016, 09:48:05 AM »
I have to agree with Sriram.

The driverless car is simply a product derived entirely from the conscious, intelligently driven actions of human beings, not from the car itself.  It is the end result of an intentional goal, and the concept of intentional goals does not really exist if you insist that the self is an illusion.   The self is the driving force.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 10:15:17 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2016, 09:58:10 AM »
a two year old for instance has not yet developed a full on form of consciousness that incorporates self awareness - are we supposed to believe that a two year old has not got its soul yet ?

A further comment on this statement -
If the brain and its sensory inputs is the soul's window on to this material world, our awareness will not be fully functional until these physical instruments are fully developed and working.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2016, 09:58:38 AM »
torridon,

You're missing the whole point. The driverless car did not evolve by itself through some random variations and environmental factors. It has been produced through decades of effort by Intelligent human beings. The car has evolved to become driverless only because of humans. There are no emergent properties that arose automatically. All properties have been introduced into the car at various stages of its evolution/development, only by humans.


That is rather irrelevant to the point of the analogy. That the car is not a biological unit is obvious, but it is nonetheless useful as a metaphor for describing the defacto relationship between 'body' and 'soul', and my OP demonstrates why my analogy is more faithful to observed reality than traditional concepts.

But anyway, we could say that driverless cars did evolve, in a broader sense in that they are part of the extended phenotype of humans, just as termite castles are part of extended phenotype of termites.  Human ingenuity is not magic, it is an evolved trait.

torridon

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2016, 10:01:13 AM »
The self is the driving force.

Not according to research; cognitive science demonstrates that the conscious self is a retrospective construction of mind.  All we need to do is decide whether to be true to the evidence, or lead lives of denial.

Sriram

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2016, 10:08:56 AM »
That is rather irrelevant to the point of the analogy. That the car is not a biological unit is obvious, but it is nonetheless useful as a metaphor for describing the defacto relationship between 'body' and 'soul', and my OP demonstrates why my analogy is more faithful to observed reality than traditional concepts.

But anyway, we could say that driverless cars did evolve, in a broader sense in that they are part of the extended phenotype of humans, just as termite castles are part of extended phenotype of termites.  Human ingenuity is not magic, it is an evolved trait.


Why do you keep using the word 'magic'? I have never indicated that any of this creation is 'magic'.  If we don't understand or sense how something happens, it seems like magic, that is all. 

Just because we call something 'spirit'  does not mean it is 'magic'.  It could have its own laws and limitations that we may not understand. Just as robots will not be able to understand what humans are made of and how we could possibly exist without any metals and plastics in our system..or how we could  be intelligent without having microprocessors.

torridon

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2016, 10:15:10 AM »

Why do you keep using the word 'magic'? I have never indicated that any of this creation is 'magic'.  If we don't understand or sense how something happens, it seems like magic, that is all. 

Just because we call something 'spirit'  does not mean it is 'magic'.  It could have its own laws and limitations that we may not understand. Just as robots will not be able to understand what humans are made of and how we could possibly exist without any metals and plastics in our system..or how we could  be intelligent without having microprocessors.

Dismissing magic places both the evolution of humans and the evolution of human creations such as cars within the natural order, ok, we agree on that.  So that is not a valid basis to dismiss the analogy.

Alan Burns

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2016, 10:16:43 AM »
Not according to research; cognitive science demonstrates that the conscious self is a retrospective construction of mind.  All we need to do is decide whether to be true to the evidence, or lead lives of denial.
But according to you, that decision is already made  ???
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2016, 10:20:37 AM »
Not long ago we would have considered the idea of driverless cars laughable science fiction.  Driverless Uber taxis are now a reality on the streets of Pittsburgh and they are being rolled out in San Francisco.  Sriram is fond of using car/driver analogy to illustrate the relationship between body/soul.  I'll suggest we can use the Uber model to understand why the concept of illusory self is truer.

In which case, as in proposing intelligence as the point of emergence of consciousness, we have to look into which part of a car the driver has emerged from.

To do this we must look at the finest of the human race, the great new atheist thinkers.
From this we can deduce that the driver probably evolved from the EXHAUST PIPE.

torridon

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2016, 10:24:51 AM »
But according to you, that decision is already made  ???

In a sense, yes, that is true. Humans mind is complex, the host to multiple agendas and layers of volition many of which are in tension with each other.  We find excuses not to go to the dentist, we put off making a funeral plan, we distract ourselves with entertainment rather than go to Syria to help orphaned children.  We all avoid unpleasant challenge to some extent.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2016, 10:25:15 AM »
  I'll suggest we can use the Uber model to understand why the concept of illusory self is truer.

Who or what is being illuded?

torridon

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2016, 10:26:39 AM »
In which case, as in proposing intelligence as the point of emergence of consciousness, we have to look into which part of a car the driver has emerged from.

To do this we must look at the finest of the human race, the great new atheist thinkers.
From this we can deduce that the driver probably evolved from the EXHAUST PIPE.

Thank you for your contribution  ;)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2016, 10:28:50 AM »
Thank you for your contribution  ;)
Who or what is being ''illuded''?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2016, 10:37:48 AM »
Dismissing magic places both the evolution of humans and the evolution of human creations such as cars within the natural order, ok, we agree on that.  So that is not a valid basis to dismiss the analogy.
Intelligent designers take biological structures and argue that they are parts of a kit.
You are taking parts of a kit and passing them off as biological structures.

What makes you less wrong than them?

torridon

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2016, 10:51:45 AM »
Who or what is being illuded?

Yes I agree this is not easy.  I didn't claim it was easy, rather that is truer to evidence. The simple answer would be that it is the virtual self that is being illuded, but the deception inflicted on the virtual self is merely a reflection of the original self-deception that occurs in lower levels of preconscious mind later on extrapolated into the synthesis of conscious experience.   I know that sounds a mouthful and it cuts to the heart of the question, what exactly is awareness, what is it made of, where is it located ? I don't think we can give easy sound bite answers to that. But the evidence is pointing us in the direction of the self as being an emergent proprioceptive projection created by mind, similar to the notion of a soul in so far as it is defacto intangible.  But can we say anything at all about the nature of the soul that sits comfortably within the knowledge base from science ?  A virtual self is harder for us to conceive of, but it is truer to evidence.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 10:53:57 AM by torridon »

ekim

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2016, 11:10:48 AM »

 Cognitive science has shown us for instance that the conscious self is not really in control, just as a virtual Uber driver would not really be in control.  Real decision making goes on before and underneath conscious awareness; conscious awareness follows retrospectively, almost as an afterthought. An emergent, apparent self, raises no problems explaining how immaterial beings could interact with matter. An emergent, virtual self, is consistent with the observation that the self dissolves on going to sleep, is compromised by various brain pathologies and disappears altogether when the body dies.  An emergent, virtual self, is consistent with the observation that the development of the self mirrors the development of the body - a two year old for instance has not yet developed a full on form of consciousness that incorporates self awareness - are we supposed to believe that a two year old has not got its soul yet ?

I suspect that there will be much confusion in this thread unless somebody defines the words 'self' and 'soul'.  The driverless car analogy is likely to cause problems as the religion oriented person would say that the car's creator God is a human who uses his intelligence to form the car and develop its capabilities, sustain its form and provide the fuel to energise it.  The virtual Uber driver could be likened to a personality i.e. a self image which an individual can identify with and present to others but which can cover up a host of other characteristics seething beneath the surface.  The two year old could be seen as having a consciousness which is engaged in the early stages of creating a persona to identify with.  The psyche (translated as soul in the New Testament) is the reservoir of what lies beneath the surface of the persona and if you have experienced what can emerge from a 2 year old, in that sense you could believe it has a soul.  It may be that this kind of self and soul does not disolve but consciousness simply temporarily disconnects from it (for a bit of peace and quiet).

wigginhall

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2016, 11:22:20 AM »
Yes, ekim is right about the self/soul confusion.

It's interesting that many religions abolish the separate self (or ego).  I was thinking of the famous Christian book 'Abandonment to divine providence', sometimes translated as 'self-abandonment', and it has another different title, 'The Sacrament of the Present Moment', (de Caussade).

This is similar to some Eastern ideas, that when we focus on now, the separate self disappears.    But then again in Christianity, 'not I, but Christ lives in me'.   This can be connected with the crucifixion, which can be seen as self-annihilation. 

Of course, these have been seen either as mystical ideas, or nutty New Age stuff. 

Zen has some radical teachers who go full-bore on this, e.g. 'neither I nor the world exist'.   I think this is talking about reification of 'self' and 'world'.

I think 'virtual' is a useful word, as it's rather different from illusion.  Thus, the ego is virtual, but also real.
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torridon

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2016, 11:44:47 AM »
I suspect that there will be much confusion in this thread unless somebody defines the words 'self' and 'soul'.  The driverless car analogy is likely to cause problems as the religion oriented person would say that the car's creator God is a human who uses his intelligence to form the car and develop its capabilities, sustain its form and provide the fuel to energise it.  The virtual Uber driver could be likened to a personality i.e. a self image which an individual can identify with and present to others but which can cover up a host of other characteristics seething beneath the surface.  The two year old could be seen as having a consciousness which is engaged in the early stages of creating a persona to identify with.  The psyche (translated as soul in the New Testament) is the reservoir of what lies beneath the surface of the persona and if you have experienced what can emerge from a 2 year old, in that sense you could believe it has a soul.  It may be that this kind of self and soul does not disolve but consciousness simply temporarily disconnects from it (for a bit of peace and quiet).

I don't think we have any substantive or detailed definition at all for 'soul' do we.  It is a vague concept and its vagueness helps protect it from falsification. With 'virtual self' I am trying to get closer to a description of what we have traditionally meant by soul in terms of the phenomenological experience of being, the feeling of existing, self-awareness, the compelling feeling of being a person and not just a body, being in receipt of experience and choosing to take action, in other words the feeling of agency, all of which has led intuitively to a dualist conception of mind as being something separate from body.  I'm trying to rewrite 'soul' in a way that is true to our contemporary knowledge base.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 12:02:15 PM by torridon »

ippy

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2016, 12:14:40 PM »
But according to you, that decision is already made  ???

For someone that throws reason out of the window when it suits them, why are you here on this thread; the I believe in god because I believe in god man now wants to argue reason? I'd like to say P off but I'm far too polite.

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2016, 12:26:31 PM »
Yes I agree this is not easy.  I didn't claim it was easy, rather that is truer to evidence. The simple answer would be that it is the virtual self that is being illuded, but the deception inflicted on the virtual self is merely a reflection of the original self-deception that occurs in lower levels of preconscious mind later on extrapolated into the synthesis of conscious experience.   I know that sounds a mouthful and it cuts to the heart of the question, what exactly is awareness, what is it made of, where is it located ? I don't think we can give easy sound bite answers to that. But the evidence is pointing us in the direction of the self as being an emergent proprioceptive projection created by mind, similar to the notion of a soul in so far as it is defacto intangible.  But can we say anything at all about the nature of the soul that sits comfortably within the knowledge base from science ?  A virtual self is harder for us to conceive of, but it is truer to evidence.
Why the talk of the virtual self? And how does that differ from an answer which goes that this is a real system of great sophistication capable of consciousness which is being illuded?

Of course the use of the word virtual is a face saving flim flam avoiding the admission that you are proposing a system that is being deluded into thinking it's itself. In other words the ''mere et pere'' of circular arguments.

Shoddy, cheap and dishonest IMHO.

Other than that I can't deny the entertainment value of your post.

In summary then it seems you are proposing a mechanism of great sophistication designed to kid itself on that it is a mechanism of great sophistication. 

torridon

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2016, 12:55:08 PM »
Why the talk of the virtual self? And how does that differ from an answer which goes that this is a real system of great sophistication capable of consciousness which is being illuded?

What does the word 'real' mean there ? I'd agree there is a real system, but it produces a phenomenology that is not quite what it seems.  I have a real ankle; I can show you where it is, what is is made of, guess at how much it weighs.  Do you have a real soul ?  Can you point to it, or tell me its mass or its temperature ? There is no ontological basis to a self or a soul, it is a slippery concept. What am I ? I can tell you my name and my weight but do those things really define me ?  Is an ocean wave defined by the particles of water that are currently in its service ? So what is the 'me' that is left when you subtract all the particles of hydrogen, carbon, oxygen and so forth that are currently in the employ of being 'me'.  I'm trying to figure out how to describe that slippery knowledge concept in a way that is consistent with evidence.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2016, 01:17:34 PM »
What does the word 'real' mean there ? I'd agree there is a real system, but it produces a phenomenology that is not quite what it seems.  I have a real ankle; I can show you where it is, what is is made of, guess at how much it weighs.  Do you have a real soul ?  Can you point to it, or tell me its mass or its temperature ? There is no ontological basis to a self or a soul, it is a slippery concept. What am I ? I can tell you my name and my weight but do those things really define me ?  Is an ocean wave defined by the particles of water that are currently in its service ? So what is the 'me' that is left when you subtract all the particles of hydrogen, carbon, oxygen and so forth that are currently in the employ of being 'me'.  I'm trying to figure out how to describe that slippery knowledge concept in a way that is consistent with evidence.
The self is an emergent property is it not.
Virtual is a cop out of admitting something that doesn't fit in with materialism has emerged which is unfortunate for you since the virtual should not exist in a perfect world of reductionist materialism.

The problems are all yours.

torridon

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2016, 01:45:49 PM »
The self is an emergent property is it not.
Virtual is a cop out of admitting something that doesn't fit in with materialism has emerged which is unfortunate for you since the virtual should not exist in a perfect world of reductionist materialism.

The problems are all yours.

I disagree.  To my mind the extra problems created by invoking a spiritual soul are far greater, and the fact that no-one attempts to flesh out the notion of soul suggests I am right. No-one ever steps up to the mark. 

A 'materialist' account is not easy, but it has consistency - in a materialist account, everything ultimately has a material basis, so even feelings and thoughts have a material basis - we can measure the speed of thoughts, a desire for action is translated into motor action without any compromise to current scientific models as it is all material acting on material according to well understood principles at the levels of physics and cellular biology. So, in my account this 'projection' is just one more feeling created by a brain that is consummately adept at producing feelings.

An immaterial soul on the other hand introduces more unexplained things than it explains - the provenance of the soul, how it interacts with matter etc.  These problems place a soul way outside current understanding of everything from quantum theory up to biology.  The hard parts of the 'materialist' account are in understanding how mind can be matter, how can a flux in potassium ions up synaptic gradients from a third person perspective also be a loud sound or a pleasurable feeling from a subjective aspect ? But the correlations are there if we have a mind that is open to understanding and not in denial holding out with 'correlation is not causation'.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 01:50:57 PM by torridon »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2016, 01:55:44 PM »
I disagree.  To my mind the extra problems created by invoking a spiritual soul are far greater, and the fact that no-one attempts to flesh out the notion of soul suggests I am right. No-one ever steps up to the mark. 

A 'materialist' account is not easy, but it has consistency - in a materialist account, everything ultimately has a material basis, so even feelings and thoughts have a material basis - we can measure the speed of thoughts, a desire for action is translated into motor action without any compromise to current scientific models as it is all material acting on material according to well understood principles at the levels of physics and cellular biology.

An immaterial soul on the other hand introduces more unexplained things than it explains - the provenance of the soul, how it interacts with matter etc.  These problems place a soul way outside current understanding of everything from quantum theory up to biology.  The hard parts of the 'materialist' account are in understanding how mind can be matter, how can a flux in potassium ions up synaptic gradients from a third person perspective also be a loud sound or a pleasurable feeling from a subjective aspect ? But the correlations are there if we have a mind that is open to understanding and not in denial holding out with 'correlation is not causation'.
But there is no consistency in the materialist account as your dependence on the word virtual has shown. Wake up to what you are saying yourself.
Also it undermines the notion of emergence.
A material self is OK anyway for Christians who recognise we are part of a created order that we are dust and return to dust and have to be resurrected in a new body.

So the real problem lies in maintaining consistency of the reductionist materialist argument.

As I said the problems are all yours.