The Illusion of Self

[bluehillside Retd.]

SOTS,

You're doing the same thing as on the Karma thread in response to ekim's questions...

If what you said here on the Karma thread

Quote
Snowflakes are non-adaptive emergent systems because they stay snowflakes
is true, then there is no way for a non-adaptive emergent system to become an adaptive emergent system. Therefore, what you say here

Quote
Life itself could be described as the point at which non-adaptive systems become adaptive for example as layer of complexity builds upon layer of complexity.

cannot be true.

Oh dear. Just because some non-adaptive systems do not become adaptive ones says nothing about the non-adaptive systems that do.

Look, it really, really would help you if you at least tried to find out something about the subject before falling off the cliff again.

Really, it would. Try it and see

[Gordon]

cannot be true.

Your justification for this statement is what exactly?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gordon,

Your justification for this statement is what exactly?

False reasoning.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

Oh dear. Just because some non-adaptive systems do not become adaptive ones says nothing about the non-adaptive systems that do.

Then clearly, they were not non-adaptive in the first place! Hence ekim's questions on the Karma thread!

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

Your justification for this statement is what exactly?

It's in the rest of my #299, that you didn't quote!

John 3 v 17 says, "For God did not send his Son into the world ". So one could ask, "What's the justification for religious belief". And then they would read the rest of the verse "...to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him" and get an altogether different picture!

[bluehillside Retd.]

SOTS,

Then clearly, they were not non-adaptive in the first place! Hence ekim's questions on the Karma thread!

Then clearly you don't understand the first thing about the phenomenon. Of course they're "not adaptive in the first place" - they're just component parts of the system. It's the way they interact that causes the emergent adaptive system.

Good grief - read the freakin' book willya!

[torridon]

Well, there is a huge preponderance of derived power/potential/change/ability in the universe ...

Is there ?

What exactly is a 'preponderance of derived power/potential/change/ability' ?

[wigginhall]

It's strange that Lewis was once feted as a talented apologist, especially with books such as 'Mere Christianity'.   I remember reading this, and 'The abolition of Man' 30 years ago, and there is a kind of superficial polish to the rhetoric.  But as others have said, Lewis had an unswerving addiction to the use of straw men, and especially false dichotomies, which pop up all over the place.   In 'Man or rabbit' you get a corker - Christianity is the greatest truth ever told, or a fraud.  Well, no, it could be a mistake, and it could be incoherent mush.   And in 'Mere Christianity' he advances the famous or notorious trilemma.   Was this man really a Professor at Cambridge?   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

A straw man, a false dichotomy and an argumentum ad consequentiam came in quick order in the first few minutes.

You still haven't exemplified.
I suggest you take a slow. careful read of the whole thing.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

You still haven't exemplified.
I suggest you take a slow. careful read of the whole thing.

I suggest that you grasp what logical fallacies entail, and then try the "slow, careful read of the whole thing" yourself so you can count them off as you go.

You may actually learn something!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's strange that Lewis was once feted as a talented apologist, especially with books such as 'Mere Christianity'.   I remember reading this, and 'The abolition of Man' 30 years ago, and there is a kind of superficial polish to the rhetoric.  But as others have said, Lewis had an unswerving addiction to the use of straw men, and especially false dichotomies, which pop up all over the place.   In 'Man or rabbit' you get a corker - Christianity is the greatest truth ever told, or a fraud.  Well, no, it could be a mistake, and it could be incoherent mush.   And in 'Mere Christianity' he advances the famous or notorious trilemma.   Was this man really a Professor at Cambridge?

Yes but look at what you have written Wiggs.
Christianity is the greatest truth ever told, or a fraud.  Well, no, it could be a mistake, and it could be incoherent mush.

What is it then Wiggs?
And does the act of jibing it actually prevent it being the greatest truth ever told since the idea that the mere act of coming up with an alternative theory or even a plead of ignorance negates all other arguments seems to have gained traction with you antitheist types.

[Gordon]

It's in the rest of my #299, that you didn't quote!

In other words you don't actually know but you'd prefer an account that creates space for your preferred divine agent, so you've concocted your very own narrative to suit your preference.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

What is it then Wiggs?

You've entirely missed the point. Wiggs was pointing out that Lewis set up a false dichotomy - nothing more. What Christianity actually is is a different conversation.

[Shaker]

And does the act of jibing it actually prevent it being the greatest truth ever told since the idea that the mere act of coming up with an alternative theory or even a plead of ignorance negates all other arguments seems to have gained traction with you antitheist types.

When bluey talked about your random word generator running at full stretch, he wasn't wrong.

Wiggy an antitheist? News to me. With your typical lack of any comprehension of subtlety, nuance and context I can only assume that when you see wiggy intelligently criticising the ideas of someone you approve of, the 'antitheist' light goes on.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is there ?

What exactly is a 'preponderance of derived power/potential/change/ability' ?

Start with your own power/potential/change/ability. You will see that it is dependent/derived from something else. and the power/potential/change/ability of that something  is dependent or derived and so on but what you can't have logically is an infinite chain of derived power/potential/change/ability.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

I suggest that you grasp what logical fallacies entail, and then try the "slow, careful read of the whole thing" yourself so you can count them off as you go.

You may actually learn something!

Evasion noted.
I've read it, I'm not sure you finished it....did you get round to watching the Feser article?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

You've entirely missed the point. Wiggs was pointing out that Lewis set up a false dichotomy - nothing more. What Christianity actually is is a different conversation.

Well that still gives us Christianity is true or it isn't. Explain how that is a ''false dichotomy''.
I feel the trouble might be that some folks are not reading it slowly and carefully.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Evasion noted.

Bit rich coming from the king of evasion, and what evasion do you think you even think you spotted in any case?

I've read it, I'm not sure you finished it...

And what was you fallacy count when you got to the end of it?

...did you get round to watching the Feser article?

What Feser article? If you think he (or anyone else for that matter) has a legitimate point to make, just tell us what it it. What I've seen of him is pretty hopeless, but that's not to say that you haven't found something that isn't.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Well that still gives us Christianity is true or it isn't. Explain how that is a ''false dichotomy''.
I feel the trouble might be that some folks are not reading it slowly and carefully.

The false dichotomy is in setting up the greatest truth ever told vs a fraud as the only two options - there are plenty of others.

Perhaps if you did try reading it slowly and carefully you'd spot some of the mistakes too?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

When bluey talked about your random word generator running at full stretch, he wasn't wrong.

Wiggy an antitheist? News to me. With your typical lack of any comprehension of subtlety, nuance and context I can only assume that when you see wiggy intelligently criticising the ideas of someone you approve of, the 'antitheist' light goes on.

Well i'd like to hang around but you've convinced me this is no place for a grown up.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

The false dichotomy is in setting up the greatest truth ever told vs a fraud as the only two options - there are plenty of others.

Perhaps if you did try reading it slowly and carefully you'd spot some of the mistakes too?

Yes but they boil down to two. How is that a false dichotomy?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

SOTS,

Then clearly you don't understand the first thing about the phenomenon. Of course they're "not adaptive in the first place" - they're just component parts of the system. It's the way they interact that causes the emergent adaptive system.

Good grief - read the freakin' book willya!

Have you watched or read Feser yet?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Bit rich coming from the kind of evasion, and what evasion do you think you even think you spotted in any case?

And what was you fallacy count when you got to the end of it?

What Feser article? If you think he (or anyone else for that matter) has a legitimate point to make, just tell us what it it. What I've seen of him is pretty hopeless, but that's not to say that you haven't found something that isn't.

We had this conversation on the Karma site. Either your memory is going or you find what I say unimportant.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Yes but they boil down to two.

No they don't - there are several more different possibilities, so the dichotomy is a false one.

How is that a false dichotomy?

See above. To be a true dichotomy only the two options he sets out would be available.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Have you watched or read Feser yet?

Watched a lecture of his on youtube - very poor.