LIFE

[Sriram]

Humans are still evolving, yes, I'd go along with that, although our biological evolution is slowed having developed technologies to protect ourselves from pruning by natural selection. Humans are becoming more 'civilised', in a sense I could go along with that; we treat criminals with a view to rehabilitation rather than punishment for instance. On the other hand we still have wars going on just as always in history, we are inducing future climate instability for our descendants and we are the cause of one of the greatest traumas to befall life in the history of this planet, often termed the sixth mass extinction event and the rest of the biomass of this planet would be enraged at our self-congratulatory mirage of human progress were they capable of understanding it.  The conceptual divide here is between biological evolution and cultural evolution.  The ways in which we are becoming kinder, gentler more compassionate people are in the domain of cultural evolution, but cultural evolution is just a froth on top of the far more profound biological evolution.  At base we are still cavemen with tools, starting from flint handaxes and arrowheads we have now progressed on to thermonuclear warheads, so much better for obliterating all the bad people with.

torridon,

Yes...the cultural evolution is what I compare with software evolution. Software evolution has overtaken hardware  evolution to a large extent. Most of the work now seems to be in software.

The same has happened with humans. While biological evolution probably remains steady in the short term, the cultural, mental and intellectual development has overtaken it. So clearly, the mental aspects now seem more important than the physical. This  again reiterates the fact that we ARE moving away from animal characteristics and developing other traits that we regard as more 'human' or as divine. This direction of movement of mankind seems clear to me.

And this is where what we call as spiritual development becomes relevant. The physical evolution seems to be less important now and there seems to be plenty of redundancy built into the biology in any case.  I expect that only after all this is utilized  we will develop further physically.   

I don't know if there are any other qualities that we are expected to acquire for which the necessary biology needs to be built up. Maybe there is or maybe not!

[torridon]

Just a brief comment - the fact that we have these means that the 'bad people' are far less likely to try and obliterate us first.

Yes, but the fact that we have to threaten each other with total and utter annihilation in order to keep the peace is a measure of how immature we are as a species.

[torridon]

torridon,

Yes...the cultural evolution is what I compare with software evolution. Software evolution has overtaken hardware  evolution to a large extent. Most of the work now seems to be in software.

The same has happened with humans. While biological evolution probably remains steady in the short term, the cultural, mental and intellectual development has overtaken it. So clearly, the mental aspects now seem more important than the physical. This  again reiterates the fact that we ARE moving away from animal characteristics and developing other traits that we regard as more 'human' or as divine. This direction of movement of mankind seems clear to me.

And this is where what we call as spiritual development becomes relevant. The physical evolution seems to be less important now and there seems to be plenty of redundancy built into the biology in any case.  I expect that only after all this is utilized  we will develop further physically.   

I don't know if there are any other qualities that we are expected to acquire for which the necessary biology needs to be built up. Maybe there is or maybe not!

To borrow another analogy, I would liken the situation to a horse and cart.  The cart is our biological selves, the horse is our cultural and intellectual self.  We have now replaced the horse with Lamborghini but it is still tied to the cart which has not really evolved at all by comparison.  There is bound to be trouble when the Lamborghini gets up to speed

[Sriram]

To borrow another analogy, I would liken the situation to a horse and cart.  The cart is our biological selves, the horse is our cultural and intellectual self.  We have now replaced the horse with Lamborghini but it is still tied to the cart which has not really evolved at all by comparison.  There is bound to be trouble when the Lamborghini gets up to speed

The point is that there is a clear direction to all this. Biological evolution, cultural evolution, civilization, religions, spiritual theory......and even science... are all making us move in the same direction.  No conflict at all! 

[torridon]

The point is that there is a clear direction to all this. Biological evolution, cultural evolution, civilization, religions, spiritual theory......and even science... are all making us move in the same direction.  No conflict at all!

There is a conflict between the lamborghini and the cart; that was my point.  A cart is not built for those kind of speeds and your ideas on spiritual evolution do not really capture that disparity. Hence we can write great symphonies and sublime poetry and put landers on comets; but at the same time we are still killing each other over trivial differences in ethnicity or faith. That is a mighty paradox that needs explaining.

[wigginhall]

We are also demolishing wildlife and its habitats with great speed.   I was reading today that cheetahs are in great danger of extinction - progress, eh?  Where I live, many bird species have declined and some have disappeared, so humans are very skilled at destroying life.

[Sriram]

There is a conflict between the lamborghini and the cart; that was my point.  A cart is not built for those kind of speeds and your ideas on spiritual evolution do not really capture that disparity. Hence we can write great symphonies and sublime poetry and put landers on comets; but at the same time we are still killing each other over trivial differences in ethnicity or faith. That is a mighty paradox that needs explaining.

Obviously all the 7 billion humans are not at the same level of spiritual development. I  have said that it is a spectrum with many at lower levels and some at higher levels.

About destruction of species....it has all happened before. Maybe not at the same rate....but life has always come back with a bang. I somehow think it is all Natures own doing. We are nature too remember!  Our development and our activities are also part of natures plan....and it will all  work our eventually IMO.

Life will prevail. Prana is everywhere after all! 

[ekim]

Nature's plan?  Oh, I'll bet you will pay for that suggestion.    I thought one of the ideas in Hinduism is Lila ... creative play.

[Sriram]

Nature's plan?  Oh, I'll bet you will pay for that suggestion.    I thought one of the ideas in Hinduism is Lila ... creative play.

ekim,

'Lila' is a concept in the Puranas where God is seen somewhat like an individual (anthropomorphic).

In Samkhya philosophy (the oldest), Consciousness is the Purusha which is trapped in Nature (Prakriti) and is trying to free itself. This process requires it to shed its lower nature which is the 'I' principle or ahamkara.  Here Prakriti is Intelligent and has its own manner of functioning...the Purusha only waiting to extricate itself.

In certain interpretations of Vedanta (Advaita), Brahman transforms itself into the world which includes Nature. Nature here also has its own laws and system of functioning.

In other interpretations of Vedanta also, Nature (Prakriti) is always Intelligent and has its independent manner of functioning..except that it is always overseen by Brahman. 

Even in the later Puranic lore you will find gods like Vishnu and Shiva acknowledging their inability to interfere with the laws of nature. They are always seen working around Nature and never changing its functioning.  Laws such as Karma, reincarnation, Life and death are seen as fundamental which even the Gods cannot change.

[torridon]

Obviously all the 7 billion humans are not at the same level of spiritual development. I  have said that it is a spectrum with many at lower levels and some at higher levels.

Well if you believe that religions are instruments of spiritual development how do you account for examples like Sweden ? Apparently Swedes give more to charity than just about any other country, they have been more welcoming to refugees and migrants than just about any other country, they have lower crime rates than most countries; and yet far from being a highly religious place, Sweden is pretty much an atheist country.  What this data suggests, is that, far from empowering spiritual development, religions tend to hold people back from being kinder and more compassionate people.  The Swedes got to be such nice people by losing their religion.

[Sriram]

Well if you believe that religions are instruments of spiritual development how do you account for examples like Sweden ? Apparently Swedes give more to charity than just about any other country, they have been more welcoming to refugees and migrants than just about any other country, they have lower crime rates than most countries; and yet far from being a highly religious place, Sweden is pretty much an atheist country.  What this data suggests, is that, far from empowering spiritual development, religions tend to hold people back from being kinder and more compassionate people.  The Swedes got to be such nice people by losing their religion.

What you are referring to are recent developments. Many atheists in other countries also are very humanistic. 

But this stage would not have been reached but for religion.  It is religions around the world that have emphasized and enforced over the centuries, certain types of cooperation, charity, morality, monogamy, family values, non-violence, self control, mental discipline, social responsibility   and so on...all of which are higher level qualities.

It is religions that are also mainly responsible for the feeling of kinship and brotherhood outside geographical, linguistic and racial boundaries. Religions have been a great tool for cultural evolution and development....and for a humanistic civilization to develop as we know it.   

[torridon]

...  I think this angst goes deeper than a merely religious phenomenon, I would suggest that humanism, essentially a derivative christian idea with god removed, often features a similar narrative in terms of the ascent of man, of secular progress, and a progress toward something is also a journey away from something less desirable, namely our 'base' animal past.

 I seldom - hardly ever - quibble with anything in your posts, torridon, but I do wonder whether you have anything from the Humanists which implies that?

Probably not, maybe it is more what is not said, or what is left out.  Humanism seems to me to still make the human central, hence the name, and this centrality of the human to all things of importance identifies humanism as offspring from the christian religion.  To me it looks like the best of ethical christian thinking but with god and any supernatural elements removed.  A broader more holistic understanding would drop judeochristian notions of the specialness and importance of humans altogether.

[Gordon]

What you are referring to are recent developments. Many atheists in other countries also are very humanistic. 

But this stage would not have been reached but for religion.  It is religions around the world that have emphasized and enforced over the centuries, certain types of cooperation, charity, morality, monogamy, family values, non-violence, self control, mental discipline, social responsibility   and so on...all of which are higher level qualities.

It is religions that are also mainly responsible for the feeling of kinship and brotherhood outside geographical, linguistic and racial boundaries. Religions have been a great tool for cultural evolution and development....and for a humanistic civilization to develop as we know it.

You forgot to mention the role of religions throughout history and across cultures in relation to people being thoroughly nasty to each other or that none of the beneficial attributes you claim for religion are exclusively religious.

[Shaker]

Probably not, maybe it is more what is not said, or what is left out.  Humanism seems to me to still make the human central, hence the name, and this centrality of the human to all things of importance [...]

... is the great problem with it, in my view.

[Sriram]

You forgot to mention the role of religions throughout history and across cultures in relation to people being thoroughly nasty to each other or that none of the beneficial attributes you claim for religion are exclusively religious.

Gordon,

If religions did not exist how do you think all the local tribes and villages would have behaved with one another?  You think they would have all been friends, dancing and singing together? Of course not!

We have evolved from animals and have ingrained within us (as part of the survival instinct)  great suspicion, fear and a competitive attitude towards rival groups...even of the same species.  Any difference in looks, color, language or traditions would have immediately made other groups enemies.

It is religions that united people of diverse groups. Uniting through 'faith' is a great step forward.

We must thank all those missionaries who put up with great personal suffering to spread their faith...even in very remote areas.   Their efforts have borne fruit today...not necessarily in maintaining the same faith....but in making all humanity as one, around the world. If there are two billion people around the world today thinking of themselves as Christian and feeling a sense of brotherhood with other Christians world over, it is no small achievement!

Muslims also did the same...but probably in a more violent manner due to their background.  While all the killing is sad, the fact that 1.5 billion muslims around the world today feel connected, is again no mean achievement.

Mutual rivalry among religions is part of the old  suspicion and fear.  This will go in course of time.

Hindu spirituality (not religion) through secular systems such as Yoga, meditations etc...is also uniting people world over...taking it to a different level by freeing spirituality from religion. In future, it is likely that secular spirituality will become the means to self development among a majority of the people.

[Sriram]

I seldom - hardly ever - quibble with anything in your posts, torridon, but I do wonder whether you have anything from the Humanists which implies that?


Probably not, maybe it is more what is not said, or what is left out.  Humanism seems to me to still make the human central, hence the name, and this centrality of the human to all things of importance identifies humanism as offspring from the christian religion.  To me it looks like the best of ethical christian thinking but with god and any supernatural elements removed.  A broader more holistic understanding would drop judeochristian notions of the specialness and importance of humans altogether.

torridon,

'Humans are central' is very different from 'Humans are more developed'.   It is true that in earlier times, many groups thought of humans as 'central' and all other life forms as incidental or as accessories. This is wrong and has probably resulted in significant disregard for other forms of life and for destruction of much of the eco system.

But regarding humans as more developed spiritually is very different. This does not in any way condemn or disregard other life forms. In fact it clearly makes them all parts of a whole....as necessary stages in development.  Like children in various classes in school. Everyone is aware that they were once in lower classes and that their own younger  brothers are now there.   

[Gordon]

Gordon,

If religions did not exist how do you think all the local tribes and villages would have behaved with one another?  You think they would have all been friends, dancing and singing together? Of course not!

We have evolved from animals and have ingrained within us (as part of the survival instinct)  great suspicion, fear and a competitive attitude towards rival groups...even of the same species.  Any difference in looks, color, language or traditions would have immediately made other groups enemies.

It is religions that united people of diverse groups. Uniting through 'faith' is a great step forward.

Especially when one 'faith' group unites in conflict against another 'faith' group, which of course includes different versions of the same 'faith'.

We must thank all those missionaries who put up with great personal suffering to spread their faith...even in very remote areas.   Their efforts have borne fruit today...not necessarily in maintaining the same faith....but in making all humanity as one, around the world. If there are two billion people around the world today thinking of themselves as Christian and feeling a sense of brotherhood with other Christians world over, it is no small achievement!

Another way of looking at missionaries is to see them as people who, having caught something nasty themselves, seem determine to spread it to others: evangelical versions of Typhoid Mary perhaps.

Muslims also did the same...but probably in a more violent manner due to their background.  While all the killing is sad, the fa.ct that 1.5 billion muslims around the world today feel connected, is again no mean achievement.

You can't be serious.

Mutual rivalry among religions is part of the old  suspicion and fear.  This will go in course of time.

Most probably when all the underlying religions slowly expire to the point they are no longer socially significant: here in the UK Christianity is leading the way.

Hindu spirituality (not religion) through secular systems such as Yoga, meditations etc...is also uniting people world over...taking it to a different level by freeing spirituality from religion. In future, it is likely that secular spirituality will become the means to self development among a majority of the people.

Or not, for those of us who aren't 'spiritual' (whatever 'spiritual' means).

[Shaker]

Another way of looking at missionaries is to see them as people who, having caught something nasty themselves, seem determine to spread it to others: evangelical versions of Typhoid Mary perhaps.

Pinching Reserving that one for future use, if you don't mind ever so.

[torridon]

torridon,

'Humans are central' is very different from 'Humans are more developed'.   It is true that in earlier times, many groups thought of humans as 'central' and all other life forms as incidental or as accessories. This is wrong and has probably resulted in significant disregard for other forms of life and for destruction of much of the eco system.

But regarding humans as more developed spiritually is very different. This does not in any way condemn or disregard other life forms. In fact it clearly makes them all parts of a whole....as necessary stages in development.  Like children in various classes in school. Everyone is aware that they were once in lower classes and that their own younger  brothers are now there.

So is an E-coli bacterium a necessary stage in spiritual development ?  What about the now extinct Argentinosaurus ?

[Sriram]

So is an E-coli bacterium a necessary stage in spiritual development ?  What about the now extinct Argentinosaurus ?

What about the hand cranking adding machines and those vintage planes and cars? Aren't they a part of the evolution of these items?  Yet, weren't they all produced by intelligent beings? 

[torridon]

What about the hand cranking adding machines and those vintage planes and cars? Aren't they a part of the evolution of these items?  Yet, weren't they all produced by intelligent beings?

The evolutionary pathway that has led to humans is just one of many; the overwhelming majority of species have become evolutionary dead ends on the branches of the tree of life, not because of failure to developed spiritually, but because of competition and external change beyond their control.  I'm not sure how your notion of spiritual development maps onto this picture of the tree of life.

[Sriram]

The evolutionary pathway that has led to humans is just one of many; the overwhelming majority of species have become evolutionary dead ends on the branches of the tree of life, not because of failure to developed spiritually, but because of competition and external change beyond their control.  I'm not sure how your notion of spiritual development maps onto this picture of the tree of life.

torridon,

I don't claim to have all the answers. Lots of things we don't know...just as in Science.  We have certain hypothesis keeping in mind our experiences and the observations of the world.

How and why Consciousness works the way it does I am not sure....but the fact that there is a direction and Intelligent guidance in biological evolution is IMO quite obvious.

I am  seeing amazing parallels between man made  products and human evolution.  There are many dead ends even in human inventions. Many computer, plane and car models have never progressed further......even though we as intelligent beings have produced them.   Darwin himself came up with his Natural Selection only in line with Artificial Selection that he found in breeding animals and plants.

As I have said in another thread, if robots, cars, computers etc. have sufficient intelligence and if they could not sense humans living around them....they would come up with precisely the same conclusions that we have come up with in regard to random variations and Natural Selection.

'Planes have evolved to suit the air flow,  racing cars have evolved to suit race tracks,   tractors have evolved to suit agricultural fields,  ships have evolved for the water,  super computers have evolved for certain functions.....etc. etc.  All random variations and Natural Selection to suit the environment.'   

If they could only sense the existence of humans, they would know that there is nothing random about all this....it was all intended even though there are plenty of redundancies, wastage and dead ends. 

We could also use animal and plant examples that have been developed by humans.

Cheers.

Sriram

[SusanDoris]

torridon,

I don't claim to have all the answers. Lots of things we don't know...just as in Science.  We have certain hypothesis keeping in mind our experiences and the observations of the world.

How and why Consciousness works the way it does I am not sure....but the fact that there is a direction and Intelligent guidance in biological evolution is IMO quite obvious.

I am  seeing amazing parallels between man made  products and human evolution.  There are many dead ends even in human inventions. Many computer, plane and car models have never progressed further......even though we as intelligent beings have produced them.   Darwin himself came up with his Natural Selection only in line with Artificial Selection that he found in breeding animals and plants.

As I have said in another thread, if robots, cars, computers etc. have sufficient intelligence and if they could not sense humans living around them....they would come up with precisely the same conclusions that we have come up with in regard to random variations and Natural Selection.

Planes have evolved to suit the air flow,  racing cars have evolved to suit race tracks,   tractors have evolved to suit agricultural fields,  ships have evolved for the water,  super computers have evolved for certain functions.....etc. etc.  All random variations and Natural Selection to suit the environment.   

If they could only sense the existence of humans, they would know that there is nothing random about all this....it was all intended even though there are plenty of redundancies, wastage and dead ends. 

We could also use animal and plant examples that have been developed by humans.

Cheers.

Sriram

Apart from just sort of mentioning, you, know, sort of just casually, that all manufactured items have not evolved, they have been changed by HUMAN BEINGS!! .... and I know that's not all you've said here, but I couldn't read it all through in detail and missed out quite a bit!

*Sighs deeply and goes off to do physio exercises.*

[Walter]

re post #96

Sriram,
it's not even wrong.

[torridon]

torridon,

I don't claim to have all the answers. Lots of things we don't know...just as in Science.  We have certain hypothesis keeping in mind our experiences and the observations of the world.

How and why Consciousness works the way it does I am not sure....but the fact that there is a direction and Intelligent guidance in biological evolution is IMO quite obvious.

I am  seeing amazing parallels between man made  products and human evolution.  There are many dead ends even in human inventions. Many computer, plane and car models have never progressed further......even though we as intelligent beings have produced them.   Darwin himself came up with his Natural Selection only in line with Artificial Selection that he found in breeding animals and plants.

As I have said in another thread, if robots, cars, computers etc. have sufficient intelligence and if they could not sense humans living around them....they would come up with precisely the same conclusions that we have come up with in regard to random variations and Natural Selection.

'Planes have evolved to suit the air flow,  racing cars have evolved to suit race tracks,   tractors have evolved to suit agricultural fields,  ships have evolved for the water,  super computers have evolved for certain functions.....etc. etc.  All random variations and Natural Selection to suit the environment.'   

If they could only sense the existence of humans, they would know that there is nothing random about all this....it was all intended even though there are plenty of redundancies, wastage and dead ends. 

We could also use animal and plant examples that have been developed by humans.

Cheers.

Sriram

if there is some unseen intelligence guiding evolution then it perhaps isn't very bright given that 95% of all species have gone extinct. The diversity and evolution of life seems entirely consistent with the rationale that is the outcome of descent with random variation upon which undirected selection acts.  And even if there is some unseen guiding hand that is making a botched job of it whilst maintaining a superficial illusion that it is all purely natural, this explanation still fails to explain the origin or nature of the guiding force; where did it come from ?