LIFE

[SusanDoris]

Another view might be that to personally experience what is reliable fact as opposed to just a belief based upon second hand information, one has often to give up the restrictions of security and safety to make a journey of discovery into the unknown.  To such an adventurer, the moment to moment journey is more vital than just living in a metaphysical world of facts and figures derived from others,  which he might see as a life not lived at all.

I was only thinking the other day - in my mind are many millions of thoughts, images, ideas, scraps of conversation, the content of many books, many pieces of music, both learnt and heard, every piece of information from all the senses, etc etc all controlled and managed by my brain; and  when I die, no-one else will know more than just the most miniscule fraction of all those millions of bits of information. Even if they remember the things I have said, it will be absorbed into their total store and not be felt or remembered in the way I do. But that's the way we have evolved and is right and proper therefore. I have thought much about God and beliefs; uncritically as a child and then more and more questioningly as I matured. Experiences I was told were from God I was sceptical about from a young age so I am pleased I did not waste too many years chasing what I know is some non-existent something.

I certainly do not have to experience personally everything I believe to be true, as there is evidence enough for me to have faith that they are true. It is impossible actually to experience god etc - all such imagined experiences are from the mind, encouraged by the multitude of stories that have been in human minds since language evolved.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by making a journey of discovery into the unknown. Could you explain please?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

A lovely post, Susan. It brings to mind a quote by the philosopher George Santayana: "To be boosted by an illusion is not better than to live in harmony with the truth; it is not nearly so safe, not nearly so sweet, and not nearly so fruitful. These refusals to part with a decayed illusion are really an infection to the mind."

Although sentimentality is a mark of unroundedness and the belief that the humanist way leads to harmony is indeed sentimental.

[Shaker]

Take it up with the humanists.

[SusanDoris]

Although sentimentality is a mark of unroundedness and the belief that the humanist way leads to harmony is indeed sentimental.

What do you think the 'humanist way' leads to?

[ekim]

I certainly do not have to experience personally everything I believe to be true, as there is evidence enough for me to have faith that they are true. It is impossible actually to experience god etc - all such imagined experiences are from the mind, encouraged by the multitude of stories that have been in human minds since language evolved.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by making a journey of discovery into the unknown. Could you explain please?

Yes.  It can happen on the physical level where somebody has discovered what it is like to climb to the top of Everest or into the deepest parts of Africa.  It may have been achieved by others who have related their experience but until I have carried out the same journey I may imagine what it is like but the actual experience is unknown to me.  We can be safely entertained by the anecdotes of others but the experiential truth lies in making the journey ourselves.  It is much the same with the ,so called, spiritual journey except that it is inward rather than outward and imagination is likely to be a hindrance.

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

I suspect that most people who are unable to see any merit in spiritual philosophies are (usually) people who have rarely if ever, been out of their countries or even towns (maybe to very similar cultures if at all).... and have had very little  exposure to other cultures and ways of thinking. Some of them perhaps would rather not know or understand even if they had a chance. They believe their glass is full and nothing more is required to be added.

And the fact that India and other eastern parts have for centuries been steeped in poverty and lack of modern education....would have added to their sense of superiority and disinterest in these cultures and ideas.  Lumping everything as 'primitive superstitious rubbish'...would be most convenient. 

Most of them have perhaps had a problem with Christianity and Islam and have therefore chosen science as a better means of understanding the world...which is fair enough.

These are the people who are embedded in Science almost as though it were concrete. 

That is why many of them are unable to assimilate new ideas even though they are not conflicting with science. They prefer the usual bible bashing sessions again and again. Very safe and entertaining.....

It is very difficult to make such people look beyond science, not for alternatives.... but for additional inputs and thoughts that could expand their minds and take it beyond the narrow confines of science.

I can only keep trying! And luckily I am out of pitchfork throwing distance! 

Thanks & Cheers.

Sriram



 

[SusanDoris]

Yes.  It can happen on the physical level where somebody has discovered what it is like to climb to the top of Everest or into the deepest parts of Africa.  It may have been achieved by others who have related their experience but until I have carried out the same journey I may imagine what it is like but the actual experience is unknown to me.  We can be safely entertained by the anecdotes of others but the experiential truth lies in making the journey ourselves.  It is much the same with the ,so called, spiritual journey except that it is inward rather than outward and imagination is likely to be a hindrance.

Thank you for making that clear. I do not think I agree with you that a physical journey can be compared with an 'inward' spiritual one, although I understand of course that no person can actually experience something in a way identical to the way another does. 

[SusanDoris]

Hi everyone,

I suspect that most people who are unable to see any merit in spiritual philosophies are (usually) people who have rarely if ever, been out of their countries or even towns (maybe to very similar cultures if at all).... and have had very little  exposure to other cultures and ways of thinking. Some of them perhaps would rather not know or understand even if they had a chance. They believe their glass is full and nothing more is required to be added.

That statement should either be backed up by facts or withdrawn. As it stands, it shows an extremely demeaning attitude to others and that you feel that you are superior in understanding.

And the fact that India and other eastern parts have for centuries been steeped in poverty and lack of modern education....would have added to their sense of superiority and disinterest in these cultures and ideas.

I think you mean a lack of interest, not disinterested.

[torridon]

Hi everyone,

I suspect that most people who are unable to see any merit in spiritual philosophies are (usually) people who have rarely if ever, been out of their countries or even towns (maybe to very similar cultures if at all).... and have had very little  exposure to other cultures and ways of thinking. Some of them perhaps would rather not know or understand even if they had a chance. They believe their glass is full and nothing more is required to be added.
..

That's kind of the opposite of my experience.  My journey from christian to atheist has been paralleled and informed by becoming something of a traveller and not staying home.  The entirety of my world as a little boy was christian.  We didn't know anyone who wasn't christian, and as for foreigners, well poor souls, they just weren't as lucky as we were, not knowing the truth. Travel broadens the mind so they say, introducing you to different ways of thinking and being and now my childhood looks naive and parochial in retrospect.  Here's something else travel does for you, it trains you to be an observer; be not just a tourist enjoying hotel pleasures, but become an acute observer of humankind and all the diverse ways in which we interact with each other and our environment.

[torridon]

Another view might be that to personally experience what is reliable fact as opposed to just a belief based upon second hand information, one has often to give up the restrictions of security and safety to make a journey of discovery into the unknown.  To such an adventurer, the moment to moment journey is more vital than just living in a metaphysical world of facts and figures derived from others,  which he might see as a life not lived at all.

I think that is well put.

Perhaps rituals and reenactments are attempts to recapture a moment of vitality and meaning from the past, with varying degrees of success.

Personal experience has to be balanced against the personal experience of others and each personal experience is unique. So we need methods do distil out common denominators of the range of experience if we are to attempt to see what is 'true for all' rather than merely what is 'true for me.'

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think that is well put.

Perhaps rituals and reenactments are attempts to recapture a moment of vitality and meaning from the past, with varying degrees of success.

Personal experience has to be balanced against the personal experience of others and each personal experience is unique. So we need methods do distil out common denominators of the range of experience if we are to attempt to see what is 'true for all' rather than merely what is 'true for me.'

Since science seems to now have come a matter of intersubjectivity suggestions of incompetence in this area in interpretation of experience need justification.

What I am saying is science is an inter subjective experience. Religion is an intersubjectivity experience and antitheism gets to arbitrate and opine on competence and incompetence.

[SusanDoris]

torridon

Interesting. It looks as if you read Sriram's posts differently from the way I did. I shall watch others' responses to see if I was mistaken. I agree that travellllllllll and living in (Little) Aden for eight years certainly helped to confirm my moving away from a CofE background.

[ekim]

Torridon

.Perhaps rituals and reenactments are attempts to recapture a moment of vitality and meaning from the past, with varying degrees of success

I am sure there is a lot in that, what worked as a stimulus in the past, if repeated, should produce the same pleasurable response now.  It can also be the basis of addiction.

Personal experience has to be balanced against the personal experience of others and each personal experience is unique. So we need methods do distil out common denominators of the range of experience if we are to attempt to see what is 'true for all' rather than merely what is 'true for me.'

My personal experience tells me not to attempt the 'true for all' declaration.     I'm quite happy with the vagaries of relative truth and their surprises rather than searching for absolutes, especially when it involves human behaviour .... and that's the absolute truth! 

[ekim]

Thank you for making that clear. I do not think I agree with you that a physical journey can be compared with an 'inward' spiritual one, although I understand of course that no person can actually experience something in a way identical to the way another does.

Yes, you are right.  The only comparison I was making was between actual experience and  imagined experience gained from second or third hand accounts.  It applies to the 'outward' and 'inward' journeys.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, you are right.  The only comparison I was making was between actual experience and  imagined experience gained from second or third hand accounts.  It applies to the 'outward' and 'inward' journeys.

  This is surely the real issue with any claims of some religious people to have any form of validation from others having had the 'same' experience?

[ekim]

  This is surely the real issue with any claims of some religious people to have any form of validation from others having had the 'same' experience?

Yes, I would go so far as to say that any inner experiences especially if intense or deep are difficult to communicate and so accurate comparison is limited.  This is why outworn phrases like amazing, unbelievable, fantastic, stunning, mind blowing, incredible, out of this world,  only give a limited idea.  What I would say, though, is that there are a variety of methods embedded within a number of religions which if practised allows the individual to source those experiences from within rather than chasing after them in the external world.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I would go so far as to say that any inner experiences especially if intense or deep are difficult to communicate and so accurate comparison is limited.  This is why outworn phrases like amazing, unbelievable, fantastic, stunning, mind blowing, incredible, out of this world,  only give a limited idea.  What I would say, though, is that there are a variety of methods embedded within a number of religions which if practised allows the individual to source those experiences from within rather than chasing after them in the external world.

mmm I find an issue here with this clear split between internal/external. The idea that internal external experiences are somehow divorced from or more 'valuable' than those as regards the external seems to me a unjustifiable position.

[ekim]

mmm I find an issue here with this clear split between internal/external. The idea that internal external experiences are somehow divorced from or more 'valuable' than those as regards the external seems to me a unjustifiable position.

I guess in this case 'value' would be in the eyes of the beholder and I suppose that all experiences end up as 'inner', but to draw an analogy, if one has a ready source of water at home, would there be a need to keep taking a bucket down to the village pump to collect it?

[Nearly Sane]

I guess in this case 'value' would be in the eyes of the beholder and I suppose that all experiences end up as 'inner', but to draw an analogy, if one has a ready source of water at home, would there be a need to keep taking a bucket down to the village pump to collect it?

so I should ignore all people? After all, they are just the village pump.

[ekim]

so I should ignore all people? After all, they are just the village pump.

Well, without pushing the analogy too far, rather than ignore others you might like to consider showing them how to access their own inner source of 'water' so that they too will not have to look elsewhere for it.