The god of suffering

[2Corrie]

a) be aware of suffering (all knowing);
(b) would wish/desire to prevent suffering (all good);
(c) would know how to be able to prevent suffering (all knowing);
(d) would actually prevent suffering (as per the properties of being all good and all powerful).

Not convinced about 'b', this smacks of a false premise.
The God I know, wants that all should be saved, that all should come to the knowledge of the truth, and repent.

[Shaker]

Not convinced about 'b', this smacks of a false premise.

I can only assume that you're unfamiliar with the concept of goodness, therefore. My definition of the word certainly includes the desire - but not, alas, the ability which presumably you think that your god, if it existed, would have - to prevent suffering; not just to make it all better after the event, but to forestall it before it occurs. The attributes ascribed to the traditional omnimax god, in actual fact, allow for such a god to create a universe in which there is no suffering of any kind because a god of all-goodness would wish it, a god of all-knowledge would allow it to know how to do so and a god of all-power would allow that universe to be created, by definition of those concepts. No amount of tedious waffle from the likes of Hope about dynamic worlds can answer this objection.

Unless of course you don't believe in a god who is either all-knowing, all-powerful or supremely good? Hope always runs away from that particular question (as with a great many more, come to that) but you're welcome to have a bash, if you like.

The God I know, wants that all should be saved, that all should come to the knowledge of the truth, and repent.

Wibble.

[2Corrie]

Shaker, Shaker, an idol you-maker.

[Shaker]

Shaker, Shaker, an idol you-maker.

I'm sure that meant something to you when you wrote it.

Most of the rest of us probably haven't started drinking quite this early, however.

[ad_orientem]

Listen, John! It's never too early.

[Hope]

I am going by what is said about god in the Bible, which does give the impression it is a psycho, if it exists.

To quote you, 'when have you verified any of your claims'?

When have you verified any of your claims?

Floo, it is difficult to verify something when the means of verification available to people don't pretend to deal with that something's nature.  It's rather like trying to verify the validity of a record player to someone who has never experienced a vinyl disc, or the validity of altitude sickness to someone who has never lived anywhere other than at sea-level. 

[Hope]

This desperate tripe is simply making a virtue out of necessity, i.e. retrofitting the notion of a god onto the planet as it is because you have to shore up the idea on no grounds whatever.

Sorry, Shakes, but the retrofitting is all yours.

[Shaker]

Sorry, Shakes, but the retrofitting is all yours.

Do explain how/where.

Not that you will, needless to say, but never let it be said that you're not given the opportunity.

[Enki]

I knew my three children would face suffering in their lives before bringing them into the world. Does that make me a psycho?

I don't think that you would be a 'psycho' for deciding to have three children, unless, of course, you had actually created the world and its potential for suffering, a world which you could have created differently if you so wished. If that were true then I might have to revise my views.

[floo]

I don't think that you would be a 'psycho' for deciding to have three children, unless, of course, you had actually created the world and its potential for suffering, a world which you could have created differently if you so wished. If that were true then I might have to revise my views.

Good post.

[Sassy]

May I provide my definition?

Look around our world and watch the news - you'll see plenty of examples of human suffering.  From natural disasters to those inflicted by other humans - it's everywhere.

All this suffering and yet no sign of this god who we are told is positively bursting with love for his creation.

The first man ADAM is responsible for all the suffering and disasters in the world since he handed himself and you over to the devil.

But one man Jesus Christ claimed us all back but the order has to return and everything be renewed.
So in not accepting Christ you and all who complain actually keep the suffering going and like Adam are equally responsible for it. If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit were given their rightful place in the hearts of all mankind, what would there be to wait for?

But unfortunately till the judgement these things must continue because people reject the light for the dark they love.

[floo]

The first man ADAM is responsible for all the suffering and disasters in the world since he handed himself and you over to the devil.

But one man Jesus Christ claimed us all back but the order has to return and everything be renewed.
So in not accepting Christ you and all who complain actually keep the suffering going and like Adam are equally responsible for it. If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit were given their rightful place in the hearts of all mankind, what would there be to wait for?

But unfortunately till the judgement these things must continue because people reject the light for the dark they love.

If the devil exists it couldn't be any more evil than the god that created it!

[Hope]

If the devil exists it couldn't be any more evil than the god that created it!

Floo, if you as a parent have brought your children up to care for others, to observe all social mores, ...; but you have also brought them up to think for themselves and in their adulthodd one of them turns to ma life of crime, is that your fault as a parent?  Is the fact that you have allowed them to choose their own way in life a black spot agaist you?

[2Corrie]

The first man ADAM is responsible for all the suffering and disasters in the world since he handed himself and you over to the devil.

But one man Jesus Christ claimed us all back but the order has to return and everything be renewed.
So in not accepting Christ you and all who complain actually keep the suffering going and like Adam are equally responsible for it. If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit were given their rightful place in the hearts of all mankind, what would there be to wait for?

But unfortunately till the judgement these things must continue because people reject the light for the dark they love.

Good post

[floo]

Floo, if you as a parent have brought your children up to care for others, to observe all social mores, ...; but you have also brought them up to think for themselves and in their adulthodd one of them turns to ma life of crime, is that your fault as a parent?  Is the fact that you have allowed them to choose their own way in life a black spot agaist you?

You are not comparing like with like, parents have to contend with their offspring's human nature. God supposedly created good and bad, so it is responsible for all that is wrong in this world. Stop making excuses for it!

[Hope]

Good post

Perhaps not quite as good a post as it might have been, especially when one remembers that this particular part of Genesis occurs in a theological treatise, as opposed to a historical part.

[Hope]

You are not comparing like with like, parents have to contend with their offspring's human nature. God supposedly created good and bad, so it is responsible for all that is wrong in this world. Stop making excuses for it!

No, God created freewill.  God created perfection, but as we all know perfection automatically requires the opposite to come into being for the idea to make any sense, and without making humans as robots, that had to be an possible consequence of creation.  Ironically, God even built means of mitigating the impact of evil into the whole system.

[floo]

No, God created freewill.  God created perfection, but as we all know perfection automatically requires the opposite to come into being for the idea to make any sense, and without making humans as robots, that had to be an possible consequence of creation.  Ironically, God even built means of mitigating the impact of evil into the whole system.

EXCUSES, EXCUSES for god's cock up!

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

#19

I am going by what is said about god in the Bible, which does give the impression it is a psycho, if it exists.

If this is the case, where is your justification in the Bible for what you claimed in your opening post?

it is responsible for causing all the suffering there has been in this world

Furthermore, why do you keep on dismissing the answers provided to you? e.g. your response to Hope in #42

EXCUSES, EXCUSES for god's cock up!

At the very least, you should be able to provide biblical evidence to counter the answers if you disagree with them. You are, after all going by what is said about god in the Bible.

[floo]

#19
If this is the case, where is your justification in the Bible for what you claimed in your opening post?
Furthermore, why do you keep on dismissing the answers provided to you? e.g. your response to Hope in #42At the very least, you should be able to provide biblical evidence to counter the answers if you disagree with them. You are, after all going by what is said about god in the Bible.

My justification is because I have actually read that book, which is more than others have if they claim the god featured therein is good!

[Shaker]

No, God created freewill.  God created perfection, but as we all know perfection automatically requires the opposite to come into being for the idea to make any sense, and without making humans as robots, that had to be an possible consequence of creation.  Ironically, God even built means of mitigating the impact of evil into the whole system.

I see the Assertatron is being flogged mercilessly today.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

My justification is because I have actually read that book, which is more than others have if they claim the god featured therein is good!

Then why can't you provide any citations to either back up your claims or counter what others have posted in response to you?

[floo]

Then why can't you provide any citations to either back up your claims or counter what others have posted in response to you?

If the Flood had actually happened and not been the mythical event it no doubt was, only a psycho would have flooded the whole world killing most of the humans and animals. 

[Walter]

I see the Assertatron is being flogged mercilessly today.

YEAH , its on the shelf next to the irony meter and the giveafuckometer.

[Hope]

I couldn't agree more Shaker.  The problem seems to be that both sides of the debate are wielding it which, when we are discussing something that can't be proved or otherwise by mere naturalistic means, seems a tad daft.