Author Topic: The god of suffering  (Read 29292 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2017, 09:25:50 AM »
While it has been covered before,given Hope suggesting unexplained healing as evidence for a supernatural, it seems that this is a good time to look again at the problems of such claims.

First of all, it's worth realising that science is as stressed many times previously methodological naturalistic. Despite what some on both sides of the belief or not in the supernatural think, it offers no confirmation that the causes are naturalistic, just that if we make the assumption that they are, then the method appears to work. The point that dismissed by many when the likes of universe controlling pixies are mentioned as the cause of everything, is that this precisely applies to everything. All gravity, all cures all things. This causes an issue for those who want to claim two different set of causes natural/supernatural as the method they state covers the natural does not in a philosophical sense do this.

That, of course, makes it impossible to even suggest a distinction with other causes as it is a misrepresentation of the claim of science, but worse is that,they attempt to make this claim by ignoring actual precepts of science, e.g. that it is provisional to then further their case. One person on here who argues for conclusions that I do not agree with , does seem to get this, and that is Sriram when he argues that there is no such divide between natural and supernatural. The problem for those arguing for a supernatural cause is that they actually mistake the nature of science and imbue it with an objectivity it does not have.


This is then backed up by the classic god of the gaps approach which using the unjustified idea that science shows natural causes as being true, then argues that what doesn't seem to fit must be this other thing called supernatural. In so doing they, as noted already, ignore the provisionality of any scientific finding and add in their own incredulity as the determining method.

Oddly most of this has been implied by Vlad when he points out that philosophical naturalism cannot prove itself, but he fails to understand quite how deep the problem is, and this is why he ends up misrepresenting so many people who are not philosophical naturalists. At base this is our old friend the 'going nuclear' option as regards to method, and indeed logical conclusions. Once the relativism is introduced, it means you cannot rely on AMY of the indications from the method to show anything that is objective.


As a relativist, this causes me no problems because I donemake claims for objectivity. I"m aware of the various scenarios of brains in vat, the possibility that it's all just a hologram flowing from the information bleed from the event horizon of a black hole, that even the seemingly immovable object of the cogito may be a mirage for an emergent facility of quantum processes. But as a relativist nine of that really matters. For those who want objectivity and absolutes, it is fatal to the approach.

Andy

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #101 on: January 04, 2017, 11:03:51 AM »
No, God created freewill.  God created perfection, but as we all know perfection automatically requires the opposite to come into being for the idea to make any sense, and without making humans as robots, that had to be an possible consequence of creation.  Ironically, God even built means of mitigating the impact of evil into the whole system.

If god created free will and perfection, then these two concepts are meaningless without their creation. If you believe god has existed without these creations, you're saying god has no free will and is not prefect.

Andy

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #102 on: January 04, 2017, 11:15:44 AM »
Given your definition, I'd say that there are many signs of God in those situations.
Committed workers, motivated by faith, giving humanitarian and medical aid in situations of the greatest danger.
Do you expect God to stop the natural disasters?
Why?
Wouldn't that contravene way nature works - and the way the planet keeps on working?
Or stop the wars?
Why?
Wouldn't that impinge on the whole free will thing again - which I'm not dipping my toes in on this thread ?

How would it impinge on free will? Stopping me from acting on my free will is not stopping free will. If I want to go to the shops, but you physically stop me from going, that has in no way impinged on me wanting to go the shops.

wigginhall

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #103 on: January 04, 2017, 11:45:24 AM »
Nearly Sane wrote:

Quote
First of all, it's worth realising that science is as stressed many times previously methodological naturalistic. Despite what some on both sides of the belief or not in the supernatural think, it offers no confirmation that the causes are naturalistic, just that if we make the assumption that they are, then the method appears to work. The point that dismissed by many when the likes of universe controlling pixies are mentioned as the cause of everything, is that this precisely applies to everything. All gravity, all cures all things. This causes an issue for those who want to claim two different set of causes natural/supernatural as the method they state covers the natural does not in a philosophical sense do this.

When I was a postgrad, we had a lecturer who used to argue that scientists make observations about appearances.   For him, this freed up the whole thing, as a scientist is not trying to go into the nature of these appearances, there is simply no need to.   Also, it's a kind of skeptical position, i.e. we don't know what they are.

Of course, it's different in a philosophical context, where one can argue about what these appearances are, whether material, forms of energy, or whatever.   But I don't think this affects the basic structure of scientific method, which is not trying to ascertain the 'heart of reality'. 
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #104 on: January 04, 2017, 11:55:21 AM »
Hope,

Quote
Experience.

Couple of problems with that:

First, by "experience" what you actually mean is the explanatory narratives you tell yourself that you find to be most persuasive - "The doctors said little Timmy was a gonner but he recovered anyway. That'll be "God" then" etc. That there are various other explanations, and that the approach relies fundamentally of false reasoning (who's to say that a corporeal cause of little Timmy's recovery won't be discovered tomorrow by medical science etc?) bothers you not a jot. The explanation works for you, so it must be true.

Second, countless people have believed just as fervently, deeply, profoundly, transcendently etc in their experiences of countless other unfalsifiable conjectures as you believe in your experiences of your unfalsifiable conjecture. Why then should anyone privilege your supposed experience over any of the others?

That is, thinking you've had a personal experience can provide only a personal truth - but there's no logical bridge whatever from that to truths for anyone else.
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floo

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2017, 12:07:33 PM »
That is, thinking you've had a personal experience can provide only a personal truth - but there's no logical bridge whatever from that to truths for anyone else.


I agree. I wouldn't expect my personal experiences, which have done the business for me, to be the 'truth' for others.

Brownie

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2017, 12:23:21 PM »
I agree floo, what works for one may not work for someone else.  We're all so different.  There's no doubt that feeling positive and hopeful helps healing, how one feels is very important.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2017, 12:47:29 PM »
Brownie,

Quote
I agree floo, what works for one may not work for someone else.  We're all so different.  There's no doubt that feeling positive and hopeful helps healing, how one feels is very important.

No doubt, but there's a qualitative difference between opinions about gods and opinions about, say, gravity. That's the point - Hope can think he's experienced anything he likes, but that's not evidence for anything. Falling out of the window on the other hand would be.
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Walter

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #108 on: January 04, 2017, 01:24:19 PM »
I agree floo, what works for one may not work for someone else.  We're all so different.  There's no doubt that feeling positive and hopeful helps healing, how one feels is very important.
however, feeling positive and hopeful will not grow back the blown off leg of a soldier, it can only change the way he thinks about it

floo

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2017, 01:26:53 PM »
however, feeling positive and hopeful will not grow back the blown off leg of a soldier, it can only change the way he thinks about it

I believe that religious scam merchant, Benny Hinn, has claimed amputated limbs have regrown. ::)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2017, 01:31:37 PM »
Floo,

Quote
I believe that religious scam merchant, Benny Hinn, has claimed amputated limbs have regrown. ::)

As he'll reportedly fleece the gullible for an arm and a leg, that's probably quite handy!
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Brownie

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2017, 01:43:38 PM »
however, feeling positive and hopeful will not grow back the blown off leg of a soldier, it can only change the way he thinks about it

You are right there, Walter, plus what blue said.

Floo, I didn't know Benny Hinn claimed that limbs have grown back!  Do people really believe that?  I am gobsmacked.
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Anchorman

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2017, 01:50:09 PM »
Most vangelicals - even the exxtreme lot - take Hinn with the same amount of salt that everyone else takes David Icke.
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Brownie

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2017, 02:00:38 PM »
That's true, Anchor, thankfully.

I never liked to listen to the Prosperity Gospel and miracles on Premier but someone I worked with listened to Benny Hinn whenever he was on (every evening?), taped him and gave me a couple of tapes which I listened to because she wanted me to.  I found it quite uncomfortable.

Just found this article/blog from a Christian who attended one of his meetings:
https://www.onfaith.co/commentary/the-five-most-disturbing-things-about-a-benny-hinn-miracle-service

There are quite a few reports of limbs growing back, I've not seen any involving Hinn but it wouldn't surprise me.

Some people are so desperate, they will try anything but it is so unfair for them to be exploited.

The only healing services I ever attended were low key and prayerful with no promises of miracles - but they were compassionate.
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floo

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #114 on: January 04, 2017, 02:07:03 PM »
You are right there, Walter, plus what blue said.

Floo, I didn't know Benny Hinn claimed that limbs have grown back!  Do people really believe that?  I am gobsmacked.

What people believe to be true is very gobsmacking. I was told by an intelligent relative by marriage,  the dead were being raised in Africa. When asked why it wasn't headlines news, god apparently wanted them to keep it under wraps, or some such nonsense

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2017, 02:16:40 PM »
however, feeling positive and hopeful will not grow back the blown off leg of a soldier, it can only change the way he thinks about it
I'm not sure that's what Brownie said - she said that:

'There's no doubt that feeling positive and hopeful helps healing, how one feels is very important.'

And there is no doubt she is right on this - indeed there is excellent scientific evidence that state of mind and mental well-being (or otherwise) affect all sorts of physiological function linked to healing and combatting disease. The immune system can be boosted or suppressed according to mental state.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with some kind of supernatural intervention - it is all neatly contained within our individual physiology. Sure some people might pray and that might support a better mental state and in doing so aid healing. But there is no supernatural component and indeed others might get the same effect from whatever 'rocks their boat' in terms of boosting mental state, whether that be music, seeing friends or family, breathing fresh air and looking at the sun set over the sea. All might have the same boost to healing and the immune system, but as with prayer none work via supernatural means.

Brownie

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2017, 02:27:49 PM »
Yes that is what I meant, it's all about having a good immune system and release of endorphins.  If a person feels quite well and lives a bit longer, that's all good.  It doesn't necessarily mean they are cured.

Coincidentally, the lady I've talked about on the Prayer forum, Barbara, was told that she was very fit, had a strong immune system and her progress quite remarkable for someone of her age.  She is certainly feeling good and active.

Speaking of boosting the immune system, very sick people are often given steroids such as Prednisolone to do just that but there can be bad side effects.

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floo

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2017, 02:32:33 PM »
Yes that is what I meant, it's all about having a good immune system and release of endorphins.  If a person feels quite well and lives a bit longer, that's all good.  It doesn't necessarily mean they are cured.

Coincidentally, the lady I've talked about on the Prayer forum, Barbara, was told that she was very fit, had a strong immune system and her progress quite remarkable for someone of her age.  She is certainly feeling good and active.

Speaking of boosting the immune system, very sick people are often given steroids such as Prednisolone to do just that but there can be bad side effects.

Steroids can have very bad side effects. I was given some about 15 years ago and they did me no good at all. One of my daughters was prescribed them for a condition she has, and it made it so much worse. One of my neighbours was made very ill after taking them. :o

Walter

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2017, 02:37:25 PM »
I'm not sure that's what Brownie said - she said that:

'There's no doubt that feeling positive and hopeful helps healing, how one feels is very important.'

And there is no doubt she is right on this - indeed there is excellent scientific evidence that state of mind and mental well-being (or otherwise) affect all sorts of physiological function linked to healing and combatting disease. The immune system can be boosted or suppressed according to mental state.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with some kind of supernatural intervention - it is all neatly contained within our individual physiology. Sure some people might pray and that might support a better mental state and in doing so aid healing. But there is no supernatural component and indeed others might get the same effect from whatever 'rocks their boat' in terms of boosting mental state, whether that be music, seeing friends or family, breathing fresh air and looking at the sun set over the sea. All might have the same boost to healing and the immune system, but as with prayer none work via supernatural means.
you're right, because that's what I said.

and of course I agree with the rest of your post , My lifestyle is testimony to that effect.

Brownie

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2017, 02:55:02 PM »
Yes floo, I wouldn't like to take them but for some people they are wonderful. A friend of mine had almost crippling RA and Lupus; she was pain free and mobile for many years because of the anti-inflammatory properties of steroids. President Kennedy was on them from his twenties I believe, and they helped him -  he functioned perfectly well despite having Addison's.  My neighbours' son-in-law has MS and is, or was, on steroids.   I don't know how much better he felt for them, he certainly put on a lot of weight.

Coming off steroids can cause the immune system to crash and that's horrible, they are supposed to be tailed off but everyone metabolises at a different rate.  Bone density can be impaired too.

It's difficult for anyone who is sick to know what to do for the best, I think they'd try anything which might help.

At least with prescribed drugs a person can come off them if they don't suit, they are not being exploited by the likes of Mr Hinn.  A "high" that he will give them cannot last for long, like anything it has to be topped up.

Then there's his Prosperity teaching but that's a different subject.
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Walter

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2017, 03:14:44 PM »
Most vangelicals - even the exxtreme lot - take Hinn with the same amount of salt that everyone else takes David Icke.
I have a one word description for Hinn  and it begins with a 'C'

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2017, 03:39:11 PM »
Hi NS,

Quote
While it has been covered before,given Hope suggesting unexplained healing as evidence for a supernatural, it seems that this is a good time to look again at the problems of such claims.

First of all, it's worth realising that science is as stressed many times previously methodological naturalistic. Despite what some on both sides of the belief or not in the supernatural think, it offers no confirmation that the causes are naturalistic, just that if we make the assumption that they are, then the method appears to work. The point that dismissed by many when the likes of universe controlling pixies are mentioned as the cause of everything, is that this precisely applies to everything. All gravity, all cures all things. This causes an issue for those who want to claim two different set of causes natural/supernatural as the method they state covers the natural does not in a philosophical sense do this.

That, of course, makes it impossible to even suggest a distinction with other causes as it is a misrepresentation of the claim of science, but worse is that,they attempt to make this claim by ignoring actual precepts of science, e.g. that it is provisional to then further their case. One person on here who argues for conclusions that I do not agree with , does seem to get this, and that is Sriram when he argues that there is no such divide between natural and supernatural. The problem for those arguing for a supernatural cause is that they actually mistake the nature of science and imbue it with an objectivity it does not have.


This is then backed up by the classic god of the gaps approach which using the unjustified idea that science shows natural causes as being true, then argues that what doesn't seem to fit must be this other thing called supernatural. In so doing they, as noted already, ignore the provisionality of any scientific finding and add in their own incredulity as the determining method.

Oddly most of this has been implied by Vlad when he points out that philosophical naturalism cannot prove itself, but he fails to understand quite how deep the problem is, and this is why he ends up misrepresenting so many people who are not philosophical naturalists. At base this is our old friend the 'going nuclear' option as regards to method, and indeed logical conclusions. Once the relativism is introduced, it means you cannot rely on AMY of the indications from the method to show anything that is objective.


As a relativist, this causes me no problems because I donemake claims for objectivity. I"m aware of the various scenarios of brains in vat, the possibility that it's all just a hologram flowing from the information bleed from the event horizon of a black hole, that even the seemingly immovable object of the cogito may be a mirage for an emergent facility of quantum processes. But as a relativist nine of that really matters. For those who want objectivity and absolutes, it is fatal to the approach.

By and large I agree with pretty much all of that. Just to tease out a couple of points though:

Quote
The problem for those arguing for a supernatural cause is that they actually mistake the nature of science and imbue it with an objectivity it does not have.

Well, it depends what you mean by “objective” here. Clearly there’s a qualitative difference between personal faith beliefs (essentially unverifiable opinions) and the methods and findings of science (essentially verifiable models of the way the universe appears to be). I’m relaxed about calling the former “subjective” and the latter “objective” as a useful distinction between the two. “Objective” specifically is fine as a place marker for “true enough” or “workably true” I think provided no appeal is made to absolutes, or to certainty.

Quote
In so doing they, as noted already, ignore the provisionality of any scientific finding and add in their own incredulity as the determining method.
 

Not just the provisionality of the scientific findings we have, but also the legitimacy of the “don’t know”. The mistake then is to see a “don’t know” from science as licence to fill in “God”, “Poseidon”, “Thor” etc as if any of those conjectures were investigable so as to verify the claim. This is essentially what Hope does – someone got better and the doctors had no explanation for it, therefore “God” etc. Epistemically, it’s no different to using Thor as the explanation for thunder.

Quote
Oddly most of this has been implied by Vlad when he points out that philosophical naturalism cannot prove itself, but he fails to understand quite how deep the problem is, and this is why he ends up misrepresenting so many people who are not philosophical naturalists. At base this is our old friend the 'going nuclear' option as regards to method, and indeed logical conclusions. Once the relativism is introduced, it means you cannot rely on AMY of the indications from the method to show anything that is objective.
   

It’s actually worse than that. I’d say that I’m a philosophical naturalis(mis)t provided you stick to its actual meaning – ie, that the the natural is all we know of that’s reliably accessible and investigable. What Vlad does though is to re-define it to mean, “the belief that the natural is necessarily all there is” and then attacks it as an unverifiable claim. He’s hugely invested in the mistake so won’t back down from it, but it’s a complete straw man nonetheless.

And yes – even if he could ever find someone who does subscribe to his personal version of it, that’d only be going nuclear – all he’d have would be “everything’s all guessing anyway” which helps his religious claims not a bit.

Oddly, he’s not alone I find in the need the religious often seem to have for certainty. “Philosophical naturalism” has to mean everything is natural; extreme moral questions have to be objectively answered etc. Some of us though are quite happy with the idea of uncertainty, of probabilistic rather than absolute truths etc so we don’t even recognise the problem as genuine.

Quote
But as a relativist nine of that really matters. For those who want objectivity and absolutes, it is fatal to the approach.
 

Quite so – which is why I wonder whether some aren’t pre-wired to believe in god(s). If you think that “God” is absolute, all-encompassing, rock solid certain in all He knows and does that’s quite appealing I guess for those who need those properties to make sense of the world.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2017, 03:45:26 PM »
Hi NS,

By and large I agree with pretty much all of that. Just to tease out a couple of points though:

Well, it depends what you mean by “objective” here. Clearly there’s a qualitative difference between personal faith beliefs (essentially unverifiable opinions) and the methods and findings of science (essentially verifiable models of the way the universe appears to be). I’m relaxed about calling the former “subjective” and the latter “objective” as a useful distinction between the two. “Objective” specifically is fine as a place marker for “true enough” or “workably true” I think provided no appeal is made to absolutes, or to certainty.
 

Not just the provisionality of the scientific findings we have, but also the legitimacy of the “don’t know”. The mistake then is to see a “don’t know” from science as licence to fill in “God”, “Poseidon”, “Thor” etc as if any of those conjectures were investigable so as to verify the claim. This is essentially what Hope does – someone got better and the doctors had no explanation for it, therefore “God” etc. Epistemically, it’s no different to using Thor as the explanation for thunder.
   

It’s actually worse than that. I’d say that I’m a philosophical naturalis(mis)t provided you stick to its actual meaning – ie, that the the natural is all we know of that’s reliably accessible and investigable. What Vlad does though is to re-define it to mean, “the belief that the natural is necessarily all there is” and then attacks it as an unverifiable claim. He’s hugely invested in the mistake so won’t back down from it, but it’s a complete straw man nonetheless.

And yes – even if he could ever find someone who does subscribe to his personal version of it, that’d only be going nuclear – all he’d have would be “everything’s all guessing anyway” which helps his religious claims not a bit.

Oddly, he’s not alone I find in the need the religious often seem to have for certainty. “Philosophical naturalism” has to mean everything is natural; extreme moral questions have to be objectively answered etc. Some of us though are quite happy with the idea of uncertainty, of probabilistic rather than absolute truths etc so we don’t even recognise the problem as genuine.
 

Quite so – which is why I wonder whether some aren’t pre-wired to believe in god(s). If you think that “God” is absolute, all-encompassing, rock solid certain in all He knows and does that’s quite appealing I guess for those who need those properties to make sense of the world.

Demonstrate to me any sense in which moral questions are subject to probability. To be honest I think you are doing more or less the same as Vlad here, in that you make the point that truth/objectivity cannot be fully obtained and then hey presto you leap the problems of solipsism by saying you accept a basic axiom and then ignoring that there isn't a possible objective reason for doing so. You are saying that you think the 'natural' is all that can be investigated because you have already accepted an axiom that it"s what is being investigated, which makes your position entirely circular.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2017, 04:01:36 PM »
NS,

Quote
Demonstrate to me any sense in which moral questions are subject to probability.

I don't say that. Moral answers seem to me to be a mix of intuition and reasoning, and sometimes they catch the wind and become the Zeitgeist accordingly (until and unless they change). There's no truth component as there is when considering, say, gravity. The probabilistic truth part concerns for example the findings of science - if I jump out of the window it's probably true that I'll hit the deck shortly afterwards, and that gives me a "true enough" truth to allow me to distinguish that clam from, say, the claim that there's an invisible dragon living in my garage.

Quote
To be honest I think you are doing more or less the same as Vlad here, in that you make the point that truth/objectivity cannot be fully obtained and then hey presto you leap the problems of solipsism by saying you accept a basic axiom and then ignoring that there isn't a possible objective reason for doing so. You are saying that you think the 'natural' is all that can be investigated because you have already accepted an axiom that it"s what is being investigated, which makes your position entirely circular.

No - see above. What I said was that the natural is all we know of that's reliably accessible and investigable - and we know that because (as you noted) it provides truths that demonstrably work: 'planes fly, medicines cure etc. There's no avoiding the problem of solipsism there at all - for all I know it's all a mirage, "I" am a brain in a vat or a bit of junk code in a giant computer game somewhere. Inasmuch as I can sort and model the world as it appears to be though, the distinctions "subjective" and "objective" are useful ones with no appeal to absolutes in either case. 

And that's very different to Vlad's approach.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 04:07:34 PM by bluehillside »
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: The god of suffering
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2017, 04:03:11 PM »
Yes floo, I wouldn't like to take them but for some people they are wonderful.

True -  I speak from experience (I thanked the steroids, and the splendid doctor: not God though :) )
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