Author Topic: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate  (Read 13888 times)

wigginhall

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2017, 12:45:29 PM »
A good question. One wonders why Jesus didn't appear to Pilate when he supposedly was resurrected?

Or why doesn't he appear now to people?  That would settle a lot of arguments, wouldn't it?   Just imagine if bluehillside got up one morning, and Jesus was sitting there, ready for breakfast, and a good chat.   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2017, 01:06:02 PM »
Hi Wiggs,

Quote
Or why doesn't he appear now to people?  That would settle a lot of arguments, wouldn't it?   Just imagine if bluehillside got up one morning, and Jesus was sitting there, ready for breakfast, and a good chat.

Well, for starters I suspect I’d want to check his bona fides, after which I’d probably be pretty pissed off with him about all those babies he’d let die of brain cancer and similar.

Once I’d got that off my chest though I guess I’d want to ask him why the evidence he’d left for his man/god status is so desperately thin. Surely if he’d genuinely wanted his “message” to get across he could have thought of a more effective way than appearing in front of tribal iron age people who readily embraced all manner of superstitious beliefs, none of whom thought his resurrection important enough to write down at the time, and for whom he didn’t think it a good idea to bequeath a technology or something that would at least suggest some sort of divine intervention.

All that said, he was clearly an interesting moral philosopher too so it’d be fun I’m sure having him tell me what he really thinks about the moral issues that seem to get some of his followers so vexed. I might even cook him a full English as a thank you (not sure about the bacon though). 
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jeremyp

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2017, 02:22:28 PM »
Not even close, pal.
No, right on the money. Resurrection qualifies as magic.
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Spud

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2017, 07:58:58 PM »
Or why doesn't he appear now to people?  That would settle a lot of arguments, wouldn't it?   Just imagine if bluehillside got up one morning, and Jesus was sitting there, ready for breakfast, and a good chat.

He could only be with a few people at a time. He went to heaven so he could send the Holy Spirit, who can be with everyone at the same time.

Enki

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2017, 08:12:34 PM »
He could only be with a few people at a time. He went to heaven so he could send the Holy Spirit, who can be with everyone at the same time.

Well He is supposed to have appeared to 500 people together, so why couldn't He appear, say, to the UN General Assembly while it was being televised. That might cause some consternation. :)
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floo

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2017, 08:33:39 AM »
He could only be with a few people at a time. He went to heaven so he could send the Holy Spirit, who can be with everyone at the same time.

What a joke, if Jesus was some sort of entity, the guy could be wherever he wished to be! ::)

Shaker

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2017, 08:42:23 AM »
He could only be with a few people at a time.
Why? According to whom? That seems an unusual constraint on omnipotence, doesn't it?
Quote
He went to heaven so he could send the Holy Spirit, who can be with everyone at the same time.
So you swap an entity who could (but now we learn apparently couldn't) have appeared in the flesh to the entire human population for an alleged silent, invisible, non-material entity whose existence/appearance can't be demonstrated to anybody.

As ever, old stick, your would-be rationalisations have the distinct whiff of the 'made up as I go along' about them  ;)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 08:57:19 AM by Shaker »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2017, 09:04:30 AM »
Shakes,

Quote
Why? That seems an unusual constraint on omnipotence, doesn't it?

Quite so. Makes you wonder why Jesus didn't just poof into existence iPods for everyone and then Skype his message to them all. That's not the story we're asked to believe though - instead we're told that "God" sat with arms folded for 150,000 years or so watching his creation getting up to all sorts of mayhem, then 2,000 years ago finally thought, "You know what - I think I'll make a blood sacrifice of my son now by sending him to a remote tribal society that's credulous enough to believe in all sorts of superstitious nonsense anyway, that won't bother writing anything down, that will nonetheless accurately discern what's happening, and that will then somehow ensure that it'll be passed down verbatim to subsequent generations. Yup, that'll do it it I reckon. Now then, if you'll excuse me I have to invent some parasites that burrow into people's eyes..."
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 09:42:23 AM by bluehillside »
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floo

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2017, 09:21:41 AM »
It is strange that god and Jesus, who are supposed to be divine and therefore beyond our restrictions, seem to have less room for manoeuvre than humans!

Shaker

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2017, 09:27:30 AM »
It is strange that god and Jesus, who are supposed to be divine and therefore beyond our restrictions, seem to have less room for manoeuvre than humans!
Hm. Funny, that  ;)

Incredible Shrinking God Syndrome, I call it. So on the one hand we're told that God is powerful enough to poof a cosmos into being from nothing and perform all manner of miracles provided they're shoved far enough back into the past (and, by sheer coincidence I'm sure, are in barely literate, pre-scientific, superstitious cultures), yet when it comes to doing anything useful, anything meaningful - preventing the Holocaust (some chosen people!*) or the Rwandan genocide, for example, or curing/better still not creating in the first place cancer in children, things I'd want to do and would do with omni powers at my disposal - its powers suddenly desert it and we're told (on what authority I have no idea) that "God doesn't work like that." Indeed, gives every appearance of working indistinguishably from no God at all.

As I say: funny stuff.

* As I think Tevye says in Fiddler on the Roof, "Lord, perhaps you could choose someone else for a change?"
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 09:49:09 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ippy

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2017, 11:26:27 AM »
He could only be with a few people at a time. He went to heaven so he could send the Holy Spirit, who can be with everyone at the same time.

How come Spud you can't see you're kidding yourself, you don't strike me as some kind of dimwit, except with this religion nonsense, can't you see that it doesn't matter how many billions of well intentioned people there are that share your distorted view, it's still a distorted view, no matter how many.

I noted Blue's ref to parrasites burrowing into people's eyes, how about the daddy of them all a wasp that captures another insect paralises it and then injects its eggs into this living paralised insect and the young of the wasp eat the insides of this victim, knowing in what order to eat the victim's organs so that it stays fresh/alive for as long as possible, so that this wasp's young have their best chance of survival.

Good thingy whatever this thing of yours you call god is, it's very inventive.

ippy

Brownie

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2017, 11:37:45 AM »
ippy:  I noted Blue's ref to parrasites burrowing into people's eyes, how about the daddy of them all a wasp that captures another insect paralises it and then injects its eggs into this living paralised insect and the young of the wasp eat the insides of this victim, knowing in what order to eat the victim's organs so that it stays fresh/alive for as long as possible, so that this wasp's young have their best chance of survival.

 :o I will never view a wasp in the same way again.
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Shaker

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2017, 12:03:43 PM »
ippy:  I noted Blue's ref to parrasites burrowing into people's eyes, how about the daddy of them all a wasp that captures another insect paralises it and then injects its eggs into this living paralised insect and the young of the wasp eat the insides of this victim, knowing in what order to eat the victim's organs so that it stays fresh/alive for as long as possible, so that this wasp's young have their best chance of survival.

 :o I will never view a wasp in the same way again.

They don't all do that - but the ichneumon wasp does. This so to speak calculated cruelty (it isn't; that's just a figure of speech) so horrified Darwin that it played a part - a small part but a part all the same - in his loss of belief in God. He couldn't accept that an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God would create something that acts in such a way.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2017, 12:06:58 PM »
Brownie,

Quote
I will never view a wasp in the same way again.

It's actually fascinating (if macabre) stuff. Try this to chill yer bones:

“Few parasitoids are more bizarre or disturbing than the wasps of the genus Glyptapanteles, whose females inject their eggs into living caterpillars. There, the larvae mature, feeding on the caterpillar’s fluids before gnawing through its skin en masse and emerging into the light of day. Despite the trauma, not only does the caterpillar survive—initially at least—but the larvae mind-control it, turning their host into a bodyguard that protects them as they spin their cocoons and finish maturing. The caterpillar eventually starves to death, but only after the tiny wasps emerge from their cocoons and fly away.

Because he has awesome ideas and not because he’s some kind of sadist, ecologist Arne Janssen of the University of Amsterdam brought this remarkable lifecycle into the lab a few years back to study it. What he and his colleagues confirmed for the first time is that not only do Glyptapanteles larvae actively manipulate the behavior of their hosts, but by transforming caterpillars into bodyguards, they greatly boost their chances of survival compared to their unprotected comrades.
               
It goes a little something like this. A female Glyptapanteles wasp pounces on a caterpillar, drilling into its flesh with what is known as an ovipositor (literally, “egg placer”), and pumps up to 80 eggs into its body cavity, according to Janssen. When the eggs hatch into larvae, they begin feeding on the caterpillar’s bodily juices, taking care to avoid attacking vital organs—somewhat of a rarity for parasitoids.

“Most parasitoids eat the host completely empty,” said Janssen. “The Glyptapanteles don’t do that. We don’t know exactly why, but one of the reasons may be that if you kill the host it cannot defend you afterwards.”

Inside the caterpillar, the larvae will go through several stages, or molts, to shed their exoskeletons as they expand. During all of this, the caterpillar, which grows more and more bloated as the larvae mature, isn’t yet showing any signs of being manipulated. Incredibly, you can’t even tell it’s behaving any differently, even as it swells to the point where it looks like it’s going to burst, like a can of soda in a freezer … that’s filled with parasitic larvae instead of soda, I guess.

Inevitably, though, the larvae must make their exit. All 80 at once. Over the course of an hour. They release chemicals that paralyze the caterpillar, then each individual begins gnawing its way out. It’s a horrific happening, as you can see in the amazing National Geographic video below, yet keep in mind that the caterpillar survives this incredible trauma.

How? Well, it’s thought that the larvae time their final molt to coincide with the exit, so as they squeeze through the caterpillar’s skin, the exoskeleton they leave behind blocks the exit hole. Thus they perform their own slapdash surgery on their gravely wounded host.

As the larvae congregate in a mass and begin spinning their cocoons, the caterpillar snaps out of it and helps them, using its own silk to construct a protective covering. And you can imagine it has somewhat conflicted feelings about all of this, much like Kevin Costner’s emotional struggles in The Bodyguard.
Once everyone is done spinning, the caterpillar switches into defense mode, lashing out at not only predatory insects, but other wasps known as hyperparasitoids. The Glyptapanteles pupae (the final stage before they complete their development), you see, don’t have it so easy. In a nice little bit of poetic justice, these hyperparasitoids will inject their own eggs into Glyptapanteles.

But not if the caterpillar has anything to do with it. The bodyguard doesn’t wander, and it doesn’t eat. It dutifully stands sentry over the pupae, rearing up on its hindmost legs and violently lashing out with swift swings of its head at anything that approaches. “And we’ve also seen that occasionally they take predators into their mouthparts and just throw them away,” said Janssen. Not exactly what you’d call normal behavior for a placid vegetarian. (Though there really are some incredibly vicious carnivorous caterpillars out there.)

What Janssen found is that when he removed the caterpillar and left the pupae to fend for themselves, twice as many fell prey to either predators or hyperparasitoids. It would seem, then, that Glyptapanteles has evolved this behavior to boost its chances of survival. Interestingly, though, the caterpillar itself attracts predators that can also opportunistically attack the pupae.

“This suggests that there may also be costs involved with the behavioral changes in the caterpillar: Behavioral changes might attract some predators against which the caterpillar cannot defend the parasitoid pupae,” Janssen and his colleagues wrote in a paper. “Nevertheless, the overall effect of caterpillar presence on survival of parasitoid pupae was positive.”

But one big question remains: How on Earth are the pupae able to mind-control the caterpillar after they’ve left its body? Given the long span between the injection of the eggs and the behavioral changes, Janssen reckons it couldn’t be the initial sting. And it probably isn’t the larvae exiting the caterpillar either, because “the caterpillars do not respond strongly to disturbance during egression, but only one to two hours after the event,” he wrote.

Janssen and his colleagues may have found their answer when they dissected caterpillars that had given painful birth to larvae three to four days before. Remarkably, they found one or two larvae still hanging out inside. It could well be that they were staying behind to mind-control the host with some kind of cocktail of chemicals in order to protect their siblings, which “would represent a cost of host manipulation: some offspring are sacrificed for higher survival of their kin,” Janssen wrote.

So it seems that this horror story could actually be a rather touching … well, horror story still. But as the tiny wasps hatch and flutter away, and as the exhausted caterpillar wavers and collapses dead of starvation, we must remember the larvae that we lost, the brave souls that stayed behind and gave their lives so their siblings might live."


(https://www.wired.com/2014/10/absurd-creature-week-glyptapanteles-wasp-caterpillar-bodyguard/)
 
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Brownie

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2017, 12:18:33 PM »
Thanks for that, both of you.  I will remember all of it fondly.  They must have some purpose, I wonder what.

Very glad they are not found in the UK.
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ippy

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2017, 01:10:29 PM »
Thanks for that, both of you.  I will remember all of it fondly.  They must have some purpose, I wonder what.

Very glad they are not found in the UK.

"All things bright and beautifull the lord god made them alll, I think the hymn goes something like that.

Quite impressive this imaginary lord god figure of yours Brownie.

ippy

Shaker

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2017, 01:12:26 PM »
"All things bright and beautifull the lord god made them alll, I think the hymn goes something like that.

Quite impressive this imaginary lord god figure of yours Brownie.

ippy

That's why Monty Python created a rather more rounded version:

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.

Amen.

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/allthing.php
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2017, 01:14:08 PM »
"All things bright and beautifull the lord god made them alll, I think the hymn goes something like that.

Quite impressive this imaginary lord god figure of yours Brownie.

ippy
Or as Monty Python have it

http://www.metrolyrics.com/all-things-dull-and-ugly-lyrics-monty-python.html


Ah I see that Shaker and I went the same way
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 01:16:37 PM by Nearly Sane »

Brownie

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2017, 01:19:01 PM »
I remember that well, Shaker and NS, was a great Python fan back in the day;  went to see them at Drury Lane with fiance (now husband).   Rod Stewart was in the audience, everyone was looking at him and his female friend (not a blonde!) in interval, I pretended not to.  He was wearing a luminous green suit.

John Cleese walked through the theatre during intermission wearing a white overall and carrying a "Miss Candy" tray with a big white bird on it, crying, "Albatross!  With or without wafers!"   Happy memories.

However, back to Pontius Pilate if we haven't exhausted that one  :D.
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ippy

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2017, 06:31:53 PM »
Or as Monty Python have it

http://www.metrolyrics.com/all-things-dull-and-ugly-lyrics-monty-python.html


Ah I see that Shaker and I went the same way

link don't not work on my tablet, my P C's in hospital at the mo, it may have worked on there.

It never ceases to impress me, the intellectual depths Monty Python goes to.

ippy

Alien

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2017, 02:02:56 PM »
it's only if there weren't unicorns.... Shifting the burden of proof and begging the question. Economic with fallacies as ever
Unicorns have nothing to do with it. JeremyP was asking who could have recorded what was said. If Jesus was raised from the dead, he is an obvious source. If he wasn't, then we don't know of any.
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Alien

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2017, 02:05:01 PM »
Shakes,

Quite so. Makes you wonder why Jesus didn't just poof into existence iPods for everyone and then Skype his message to them all. That's not the story we're asked to believe though - instead we're told that "God" sat with arms folded for 150,000 years or so watching his creation getting up to all sorts of mayhem, then 2,000 years ago finally thought, "You know what - I think I'll make a blood sacrifice of my son now by sending him to a remote tribal society that's credulous enough to believe in all sorts of superstitious nonsense anyway, that won't bother writing anything down, that will nonetheless accurately discern what's happening, and that will then somehow ensure that it'll be passed down verbatim to subsequent generations. Yup, that'll do it it I reckon. Now then, if you'll excuse me I have to invent some parasites that burrow into people's eyes..."
Wotcha BHS.

If you witnessed Jesus' (alleged) resurrection, would you accept that it had happened? I ask because I have discussed this with some atheists in the past who have said that even if they say it (apparently) happening they wouldn't believe it.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Shaker

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2017, 02:05:53 PM »
Unicorns have nothing to do with it. JeremyP was asking who could have recorded what was said. If Jesus was raised from the dead, he is an obvious source. If he wasn't, then we don't know of any.
Are they the only two options?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2017, 02:07:08 PM »
If you witnessed Jesus' (alleged) resurrection, would you accept that it had happened? I ask because I have discussed this with some atheists in the past who have said that even if they say it (apparently) happening they wouldn't believe it.
Perhaps they're aware - there's rather a lot of evidence to shore this up - of just how dodgy eyewitness testimony is when it comes to accurate reportage of fact.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: The strange afterlife of Pontius Pilate
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2017, 02:20:49 PM »
Wotcha BHS.

If you witnessed Jesus' (alleged) resurrection, would you accept that it had happened? I ask because I have discussed this with some atheists in the past who have said that even if they say it (apparently) happening they wouldn't believe it.

I'd say any claim like this would require close investigation: the problem arises in respect of Jesus of even knowing that  there was an event to investigate. Since the only reports are post-hoc (by decades) anecdotal accounts of uncertain provenance the start point would be to exclude the risks of bias, mistakes or lies in these accounts.

How has this been done to your satisfaction?