Author Topic: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine  (Read 1206 times)

Nearly Sane

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Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« on: January 04, 2017, 09:49:21 AM »

Chunky interview with James Marcum on the influence of Kuhn in the philosophy of science and other areas, and his own ideas on the philosophy of medicine. Lots to agree and disagree with, a certain amount to be puzzled over.


http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/kuhns-science-medicine-really-care-patients/

Udayana

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2017, 12:11:20 PM »
Touches on interesting topics, but a waffle-y and over-involved presentation doesn't encourage following further.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Walter

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2017, 02:52:35 PM »
Touches on interesting topics, but a waffle-y and over-involved presentation doesn't encourage following further.
I totally agree and as Stephen Hawking explains , philosophers are struggling to keep up with the advance of scientific theories because they have become too mathematical and technical and what they have been left with is the analysis of language.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2017, 03:19:21 PM »
I totally agree and as Stephen Hawking explains , philosophers are struggling to keep up with the advance of scientific theories because they have become too mathematical and technical and what they have been left with is the analysis of language.
so ethics is mathematical and technical? I think you and indeed Hawking misunderstand philosophy.

Udayana

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2017, 03:21:28 PM »
Some philosophers can learn maths and provide useful interpretation of science to the non technical - easier ways to visualize and use it. Others can turn their analytic skills to solving actual political and social problems that we have - eg. as Marcum seems to be suggesting for medicine.

Backwards and forwards banter about metaphysics has been redundant since Wittgenstein and not much use since much earlier. 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2017, 03:34:13 PM »
Some philosophers can learn maths and provide useful interpretation of science to the non technical - easier ways to visualize and use it. Others can turn their analytic skills to solving actual political and social problems that we have - eg. as Marcum seems to be suggesting for medicine.

Backwards and forwards banter about metaphysics has been redundant since Wittgenstein and not much use since much earlier.

Mmm I think there are real and clear issues with science in terns of its relationship with philosophy currently. The challenge that Kuhn made to Popper's idea of falsifiability as it happens in practice us still value. Added to that the more recent push from some scientists that falsifiability may no linger be useful and there are issues about what it is we can take from science going forward.

Taking this with the alternative push from those like Sam Harris to jump the ought/is gap by simply declaring it not a gap, and adding this to the problems we have determining even basic factual knowledge seemingly increasing, I think the idea of philosophy being the amanuensis of science is mistaken.


That said, it's a bit like Samuel"s thread on !meaning and delusion that on a day to day level both philsophy and science (as opposed to technology) have little import for any of us.

Walter

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2017, 04:13:11 PM »
so ethics is mathematical and technical? I think you and indeed Hawking misunderstand philosophy.
NS,

Have a look at what Lawrence Krauss has to say about philosophers, its quite amusing .

btw I have no real interest in ethics as a 'regulator' of scientific endeavour or practice especially when the religious get involved 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2017, 04:18:54 PM »
NS,

Have a look at what Lawrence Krauss has to say about philosophers, its quite amusing .

btw I have no real interest in ethics as a 'regulator' of scientific endeavour or practice especially when the religious get involved
Not quite sure how you got onto regulation of science but even were you to propose no regulation, then that's an ethical stance.

The issues I was talking about are not about regulation but what is value as science and this is the subject of much discussion in the scientific community! It is not in itself a scientific question, just as the regulation of science is not a scientific question. Given that these are not scientific questions how do you or Krauss propose to deal with them?


Note to shorthand this, the luink below is a discussion between Jrauss and Julian Baggini which I think makes clear that there isn't quite this difference in position as sometimes people's rhetoric lead too


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/sep/09/science-philosophy-debate-julian-baggini-lawrence-krauss
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 04:21:52 PM by Nearly Sane »

Udayana

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2017, 04:33:16 PM »
The Popper/Kuhn debate is a bit late 60's. They were both right and wrong in different ways.

The String theorists will change their stance on falsifiability as (parts of) their models begin to see experimental validation. Models based on entropic gravity and a holographic universe are now starting to see to results whilst other attempts to explain "dark matter" have failed. We can anticipate scientists taking their positions for or against adopting a new model, a paradigm change, just as Kuhn suggested.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2017, 04:36:41 PM »
The Popper/Kuhn debate is a bit late 60's. They were both right and wrong in different ways.

The String theorists will change their stance on falsifiability as (parts of) their models begin to see experimental validation. Models based on entropic gravity and a holographic universe are now starting to see to results whilst other attempts to explain "dark matter" have failed. We can anticipate scientists taking their positions for or against adopting a new model, a paradigm change, just as Kuhn suggested.

And none of those questions are scientific. Other than that and the fact that string theory does not match the requirements to be called a theory, I agree.

Walter

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2017, 05:16:19 PM »
Not quite sure how you got onto regulation of science but even were you to propose no regulation, then that's an ethical stance.

The issues I was talking about are not about regulation but what is value as science and this is the subject of much discussion in the scientific community! It is not in itself a scientific question, just as the regulation of science is not a scientific question. Given that these are not scientific questions how do you or Krauss propose to deal with them?


Note to shorthand this, the luink below is a discussion between Jrauss and Julian Baggini which I think makes clear that there isn't quite this difference in position as sometimes people's rhetoric lead too


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/sep/09/science-philosophy-debate-julian-baggini-lawrence-krauss
I'm guessing Mr Krauss , with a book to sell, was on his best behaviour during that discussion .
and I would have liked to see the original transcript because he doesn't normally speak with such clarity and eloquence .

Also , in the case of such discussions I wonder who seeks out whom?

great read though, thanks. I particularly like the line 'lab coat envy' says it all really

Udayana

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2017, 05:48:57 PM »
You might like this, based on work by Derek Parfit, who died earlier this week. Maths applied to happiness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqBl50TREHU
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Walter

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Re: Kuhn and the philosophy of medicine
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2017, 09:02:10 PM »
You might like this, based on work by Derek Parfit, who died earlier this week. Maths applied to happiness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqBl50TREHU
she's lovely, if you turn the sound off  ;)