Soft Brexit takes indyref2 off the table

[jakswan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38528058

Lets go for a hard brexit then!

[Aruntraveller]

Surely a hard brexit just means the shafting will be severe and painful.

[Walter]

Surely a hard brexit just means the shafting will be severe and painful.

touch your toes.    now.

[Hope]

Perhaps more importantly, are the leaders of the EU likely to sanction a soft Brexit?  Won't they want to make a statement, aimed at other nations who might have ideas about leaving the Union?  Sturgeon, Farage, Corbyn, Johnson, Gove et all can make all the noise they like about what they want; EU leaders aren't obliged to pay the slightest heed to any of them.

[JP]

Maybe, possibly there is a bit of a chance, but only perhaps for a bit or maybe not but then again its concievable it could be. I want it so badly but I am crapping myself when to do it.

Hard Brexit please, then we will see if she will put her money where her mouth is.

[Jack Knave]

Perhaps more importantly, are the leaders of the EU likely to sanction a soft Brexit?  Won't they want to make a statement, aimed at other nations who might have ideas about leaving the Union?  Sturgeon, Farage, Corbyn, Johnson, Gove et all can make all the noise they like about what they want; EU leaders aren't obliged to pay the slightest heed to any of them.

You think the EU is in a strong position?

[Sassy]

Perhaps more importantly, are the leaders of the EU likely to sanction a soft Brexit?  Won't they want to make a statement, aimed at other nations who might have ideas about leaving the Union?  Sturgeon, Farage, Corbyn, Johnson, Gove et all can make all the noise they like about what they want; EU leaders aren't obliged to pay the slightest heed to any of them.

If,and I do mean, if the EU try to make the exit for Britain difficult ( because they used their democratic choice and right to leave,) aren't members going to be more likely to leave now than when it would be made more difficult to leave knowing the severe consequences they have brought about with the UK leaving?

The EU would be committing suicide if they tried to impact the UK leaving by making them the example. After all.... wasn't this meant to be a friendly and mutually beneficial alliance?
Seems everyone would know the desperation of the EU to keep members and that they are not their by freedom of Choice but in fear of what leaving would do to them in repercussions from
the EU body.

It would be stupid to try and harm Great Britain because it could give the other countries the motivation and lack of trust to leave themselves.
Oops No EU to do anything about multi country exit. The truth is that the people for or against are so annoyed that they would damage their own country and their own well-being just to hit out over the brexit.

If the EU are stupid enough to make an example of the UK exit then they are looking at the other Countries following.

[Jack Knave]

If,and I do mean, if the EU try to make the exit for Britain difficult ( because they used their democratic choice and right to leave,) aren't members going to be more likely to leave now than when it would be made more difficult to leave knowing the severe consequences they have brought about with the UK leaving?

The EU would be committing suicide if they tried to impact the UK leaving by making them the example. After all.... wasn't this meant to be a friendly and mutually beneficial alliance?
Seems everyone would know the desperation of the EU to keep members and that they are not their by freedom of Choice but in fear of what leaving would do to them in repercussions from
the EU body.

It would be stupid to try and harm Great Britain because it could give the other countries the motivation and lack of trust to leave themselves.
Oops No EU to do anything about multi country exit. The truth is that the people for or against are so annoyed that they would damage their own country and their own well-being just to hit out over the brexit.

If the EU are stupid enough to make an example of the UK exit then they are looking at the other Countries following.

That's a fair point but the real issue in what you say, as I see it, is that the attitude that you are presenting for the other EU members would be at grassroots level i.e. the people and not for the politicians, who love the gravy train of the EU. This then would basically means a class war between the Elitist and the populous. Norway isn't a member of the EU but their politicians want to join because of the goodies they see there waiting for them. It is the people who refuse to give the go ahead - remember the EEA was only a temporary stop gap whilst they decided what to do about joining or not, and now it has become a permanent fixture of the system.

[Hope]

You think the EU is in a strong position?

Well, it is in a stronger position that Britain, and the leaders will be determined to stop other countries who have, in the past, expressed concerns over the EU for following the UK's example.

[Jack Knave]

Well, it is in a stronger position that Britain, and the leaders will be determined to stop other countries who have, in the past, expressed concerns over the EU for following the UK's example.

So the Euro is stronger than the pound? The Euro is on the verge of collapse and the ECB's ability to hold it up is diminishing by the day. Regardless of what some say on this forum it is one of the corner blocks of the EU's project and if that goes down the whole of the EU goes with it. If they give us a bad deal and we drastically reduce our trade with them then weak links like France and Italy could go under. We also have the best intelligence in the EU and if they lose that then all hell could breakout with terrorist attacks on the European continent.

To be honest I think Brexit is a minor itch for Brussels compared to some of the issues they are having to deal with and I would have thought they would want it to be as smooth as possible just to get it out the way.

[Hope]

So the Euro is stronger than the pound? The Euro is on the verge of collapse and the ECB's ability to hold it up is diminishing by the day. Regardless of what some say on this forum it is one of the corner blocks of the EU's project and if that goes down the whole of the EU goes with it. If they give us a bad deal and we drastically reduce our trade with them then weak links like France and Italy could go under. We also have the best intelligence in the EU and if they lose that then all hell could breakout with terrorist attacks on the European continent.

To be honest I think Brexit is a minor itch for Brussels compared to some of the issues they are having to deal with and I would have thought they would want it to be as smooth as possible just to get it out the way.

JK, the EU is different from the Euro.  There are members of the EU - such as Britain - who aren't and have never been part of the Eurozone, whilst thgere are a fdew places that are part of the Eurozone, but not part of the EU.

Confusing the two, despite their interlinked-ness, is a major mistake.

[Jack Knave]

JK, the EU is different from the Euro.  There are members of the EU - such as Britain - who aren't and have never been part of the Eurozone, whilst thgere are a fdew places that are part of the Eurozone, but not part of the EU.

Confusing the two, despite their interlinked-ness, is a major mistake.

So are you saying that if the Euro crashes the EU will carry on without a hitch? I mean, Germany and France the cornerstones of the EU project will be ok?

[Anchorman]

Indyref 2 is not 'off the table'. Here's a comment from the Wee Ginger Dug. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/independence-means-independence/

[Jack Knave]

Indyref 2 is not 'off the table'. Here's a comment from the Wee Ginger Dug. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/independence-means-independence/

The Big Bad Fish is only trying to keep herself in the game and not look superfluous to the political machinations. But basically she is talking bollocks. Let her have her referendum, the odds are she'll lose once the Scots see their economy would perish if they left.

[Hope]

So are you saying that if the Euro crashes the EU will carry on without a hitch? I mean, Germany and France the cornerstones of the EU project will be ok?

No, I'm not saying it'll continue without a hitch - those are your words - but remember that the EU existed without the Euro for 50-odd years.  Furthermore, the Eurozone is much the EU as the single market is the EU.  They are different things, which have strong, but not inseparable links.

[jakswan]

Indyref 2 is not 'off the table'. Here's a comment from the Wee Ginger Dug. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/independence-means-independence/

Daily Mail Scotland style.

[JP]

I see she was on Marr again this morning, saying the same things she has said over and over, and over again, well at least for the 30 seconds it took me to find the remote.

It might just be me and although I find politicians, for various reasons, more irritating than I ever have, Nicola is way out ahead and i like a Duracell rabbit, going on, and on and on and on with the same old stuff.

She is a coward and should not be broadcast outside of Scotland

[wigginhall]

I would think that Sturgeon believes that hard Brexit is on the way, and she is getting her troops ready for this.   Whether or not the SNP can utilize this, I have no idea, as while it may impel some to want independence, it may impel others the other way. 

I see Mrs May was being Delphic as usual, but soft Brexit looks more and more like a fantasy to me, but she can't admit that yet.

[Gordon]

I see she was on Marr again this morning, saying the same things she has said over and over, and over again, well at least for the 30 seconds it took me to find the remote.

It might just be me and although I find politicians, for various reasons, more irritating than I ever have, Nicola is way out ahead and i like a Duracell rabbit, going on, and on and on and on with the same old stuff.

She is a coward and should not be broadcast outside of Scotland

Some of us quite like her, some of us voted for her party, and some of us think she is acting in the best interests of those who can vote for her/her party and some of us are sick to death of the received (but as yet unsubstantiated) wisdom of Brexit as advanced by odious reptilian right-wing Tory/UKIP politicians from elsewhere in the UK.

Some of us hope that the current government make an utter arse of Brexit: not that they need much help in that regard given the current headless chicken impersonation they're doing (of Micawberean proportions), and we hope that rUK wakes up to the impending disaster before it is too late. If they don't then some of us Scots hope that most of our fellow Scots will come to the view that if Brexit proceeds in the hands of said odious reptilian Tory/Ukip politicians then we'd rather leave the sinking ship while we still can.

Shame for those going down with the sinking ship but who'd rather not, since if there are plans then they probably don't include lifeboats (since it seems that to consider Brexit might be problematic at all is a sign of weakness). 

You see: vitriol works both ways!

[Hope]

Some of us quite like her, some of us voted for her party, and some of us think she is acting in the best interests of those who can vote for her/her party and some of us are sick to death of the received (but as yet unsubstantiated) wisdom of Brexit as advanced by odious reptilian right-wing Tory/UKIP politicians from elsewhere in the UK.

Don't forget the Labour voters who voted for it, Gordon.  After all, a referendum is an expression of public opinion.  To suggest that the issue is purely right-wing is to indicate your lack of understanding.

Some of us hope that the current government make an utter arse of Brexit: not that they need much help in that regard given the current headless chicken impersonation they're doing (of Micawberean proportions), and we hope that rUK wakes up to the impending disaster before it is too late. If they don't then some of us Scots hope that most of our fellow Scots will come to the view that if Brexit proceeds in the hands of said odious reptilian Tory/Ukip politicians then we'd rather leave the sinking ship while we still can.

I wonder whether that is May's plan - that the Brexiteerrs she put in places of influence show how pathetic they are.  Oddly enough, the odious UKIP politicians have thankfully not been any say in the process.  My chief concern is that Scotland might find that they have even less independence by staying in the EU.

Shame for those going down with the sinking ship but who'd rather not, since if there are plans then they probably don't include lifeboats (since it seems that to consider Brexit might be problematic at all is a sign of weakness). 

Well, the lifeboats are just as much the responsibility of Sturgeon as they are of Gove et al.

[Gordon]

Don't forget the Labour voters who voted for it, Gordon.  After all, a referendum is an expression of public opinion.  To suggest that the issue is purely right-wing is to indicate your lack of understanding.

The number of Labour politicians who are portraying Brexit with the enthusiasm of, say, Farage or Duncan Smith are how many exactly? Brexit is now in the possession of a right-wing clique, as was obvious in the reaction to the resignation of the EU diplomat last week.

I wonder whether that is May's plan - that the Brexiteerrs she put in places of influence show how pathetic they are.  Oddly enough, the odious UKIP politicians have thankfully not been any say in the process.

That would at least be a plan, but not a particularly good one given the risks and absence of options to undo any damage.

My chief concern is that Scotland might find that they have even less independence by staying in the EU.

Given we've been stitched up by rUK you'll forgive from preferring that we Scots don't set much stock by the politics of rUK and sort out our own future relationship with the EU.

Well, the lifeboats are just as much the responsibility of Sturgeon as they are of Gove et al.

Only at the point where she is directly responsible for events - all she can do now is warn of icebergs on the starboard bow until she gets access to the bridge: who knows if she will and what she'll find if she ever does.

If England & Wales are so intent on this course why the hell don't they just secede from the UK then we and NI will retain our EU membership and you guys can start building the fences around your ports and airports and being as introspective as you like.

[Anchorman]

Labour is becoming an increasing irrelevence up here, Hope - and I write this with sadness. Their leader is trying her best - but that is a lamentable effort, and the party is seen as a busted flush. Even dyed-in-the-wool Labour pundits are looking at this year's local government elections with their hands covering their eyes. If May is a wet blanket over Brexit, then SLAB (Scottish Labour) actually makes her look competant.

[JP]

I can understand how like minded people in Scotland can see her as they do, however most of the people who I know would rather hear someone dragging their fingernails down a chalkboard than listen to her.

Brexit is years away, do we really have to suffer her saying the same thing until it is complete. Yes I am, no I'm not, well not at the moment anyway but if anything changes I may or may not depending on the change. It is like a Monty Python sketch.

We all know she will go for another yes vote as soon as she can but she's bricking it as she also knows she'll be out the door if she loses. Not to worry though as although it will be the last referendum for a generation I am sure something will happen within a few days of the result which will start the whole bloody thing off again.

Have her on TV by all means but on national TV, no thanks. We get enough off our lot down here.

[Gordon]

I can understand how like minded people in Scotland can see her as they do, however most of the people who I know would rather hear someone dragging their fingernails down a chalkboard than listen to her.

Obviously her main audience is here but for as long as we remain in the UK someone has to set out the Scottish perspective, and the SNP are that 'someone' given the political picture here. For example, as regards the mainstream UK I'm fed up hearing about UKIP/Farage who are irrelevant here in Scotland along the avoidance that the referendum result here was very different to the very narrow UK one, which gets mentioned as justification for this madness. 

Brexit is years away, do we really have to suffer her saying the same thing until it is complete. Yes I am, no I'm not, well not at the moment anyway but if anything changes I may or may not depending on the change. It is like a Monty Python sketch.

Yes - since what she is saying is a valid position given both the referendum and election results here in Scotland.

We all know she will go for another yes vote as soon as she can but she's bricking it as she also knows she'll be out the door if she loses. Not to worry though as although it will be the last referendum for a generation I am sure something will happen within a few days of the result which will start the whole bloody thing off again.

Had the disaster last June not happened I doubt indyref2 would be an option: but it did happen thanks to the Tories who in 2014 told us to reject independence if we wanted to stay in the EU - and we do (by 62% vs 38%), so you can see why we might be pissed.

Have her on TV by all means but on national TV, no thanks. We get enough off our lot down here.

Well we have to tolerate Farage, May, Redwood etc.

[jakswan]

Some of us quite like her, some of us voted for her party, and some of us think she is acting in the best interests of those who can vote for her/her party and some of us are sick to death of the received (but as yet unsubstantiated) wisdom of Brexit as advanced by odious reptilian right-wing Tory/UKIP politicians from elsewhere in the UK.

Some of us hope that the current government make an utter arse of Brexit: not that they need much help in that regard given the current headless chicken impersonation they're doing (of Micawberean proportions), and we hope that rUK wakes up to the impending disaster before it is too late. If they don't then some of us Scots hope that most of our fellow Scots will come to the view that if Brexit proceeds in the hands of said odious reptilian Tory/Ukip politicians then we'd rather leave the sinking ship while we still can.

Shame for those going down with the sinking ship but who'd rather not, since if there are plans then they probably don't include lifeboats (since it seems that to consider Brexit might be problematic at all is a sign of weakness). 

You see: vitriol works both ways!

Vitriol invites vitriol, and Sturgeon national socialism comes up Trump in vitriol.