Author Topic: Theology at Universities?  (Read 19428 times)

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2017, 06:44:37 PM »
What makes you think that 'enlightenment' doesn't include matters spiritual and therefore theological. 

You are right, it does, encouraging and celebrating reason and independent thought.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2017, 06:47:08 PM »
Gordon #122

What is your definition of Theology then? What do you think it is in Theology that makes it a separate subject from history, philosophy, etc?

I'd say it is a subset of philosophy with links to anthropology and ethnography. Moreover I think it can be studied without accepting that specific claims in different theologies are factually true.

In short I'd tend to see it as an aspect of cultural history.

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2017, 06:52:21 PM »
It is a fact though that neither Winston Smith nor the Ancient Mariner exist and yet their portrayal in literature: along with the likes of Holden Caulfield, Tom Joad, Ebenezeer Scrooge and a host of others - and then there is poetry - is considered meaningful by readers and worthy of serious academic study.

So, while I don't buy into the divine being in any sense 'real' I do think that theology has its cultural, literary and historical merits even if it has its limitations: in some ways just like the academic study of fictional literature.
A thesis I've often seen advanced, by some atheists and some liberal-minded believers alike, is that a feeling for religion is akin to an appreciation for art in much the way you suggest here, Gordon.

It always comes from deeply well-meaning people who show every sign of completely having failed to follow this idea through to its logical conclusion. This stems from overlooking, accidentally or deliberately, a rather salient fact: religions - especially "organised" and monotheistic ones - seek to control people's behaviour. They attempt to dictate what they do, what they wear, what they eat and when they eat it, who is a permissible sexual partner, all this and a thousand and one other attempts at making people act, even think in a certain way. This would be less objectionable - no less ridiculous, but less objectionable - if they attempted to do this only within their own ranks, but they don't. As sure as my arse points downwards, each and every time a religion thinks that it can control the behaviour of those outwith its own group, it will try to do so. Only three or four years ago, the established state church in England (not to mention all the other religious groupings sticking their snouts in likewise) was exerting pressure to prevent same-sex couples from getting married, even though this was a wholly secular, civil affair which had absolutely nothing whatever to do with them at all. Despite this, the staunch conviction of some that their entirely brain-bound idea of deity disapproved of equal marriage led them to attempt to scupper the government's plans to make it a reality. Thank goodness they failed - but that didn't stop them trying, because of their conviction that their idea of a god's likes and dislikes trumps anything as mundane as equal civil rights. Many, many other places in the world are not nearly as fortunate.

If religion really were in any way comparable to art this wouldn't be the case. It would be recognised that these are subjective matters hanging upon individual taste and inclination; I like this, you like that, we can discuss why I like this and why you don't, and come to an opposite but amicable conclusion to the matter. For the most part each side leaves each other alone: admirers of traditionalist representational art tend not to come to blows with votaries of abstract art, for example, or vice versa. I'm willing to listen to any evidence but I think I'm on firm ground in saying that nobody, anywhere, ever has put someone else's feet to the flames for liking Pound's Pisan Cantos over Pam Ayres. Religions rarely get to this stage, and if they do, it's after a very very long period of having their teeth pulled by increasing secularism. Religions can't have it both ways, though needless to say they will try at any and every opportunity. Either they dictate how people behave based on a belief in external, objective deities and their assumed likes and dislikes, or it's more like an opinion on the value of formalist poetry over vers libre. It's either "You should/shouldn't do this because this or that interpretation of a supposedly immaterial entity that I think exists - but can never demonstrate - says so", or it's "Well, whatever floats your potatoes, man", essentially, thereby giving up all and any pretensions of controlling people's behaviour. One or the other: it can't be both.

Fictional characters in literature doing fictional things in fictional settings are indeed worthy of serious academic study; but there's a consensus that they're fictional characters which doesn't exist in the same arena when it comes to religion. No doubt there are exceptions, but theologians presumably think that their endless lucubrations actually have some referent to some real state of affairs somewhere and somehow (though they're notably silent when it comes to explaining how this is supposed to work). There's not the same agreement that what is being discussed is imaginary and imaginative as there is in literature. I will be the first one to applaud when religionists come to that self-same conclusion.

And we'll have a damned sight more peaceful a world for it as well.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 07:27:20 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #128 on: January 10, 2017, 07:03:04 PM »
Shaker #127

*thumbs up emoticon*
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #129 on: January 10, 2017, 07:26:17 PM »
I've often seen advanced, by some atheists and some liberal-minded believers alike, that a feeling for religion is akin to an appreciation for art in much the way you suggest here, Gordon.

It always comes from deeply well-meaning people who show every sign of completely having failed to follow this idea through to its logical conclusion. This stems from overlooking, accidentally or deliberately, a rather salient fact: religions - especially "organised" and monotheistic ones - seek to control people's behaviour. They attempt to dictate what they do, what they wear, what they eat and when they eat it, who is a permissible sexual partner, all this and a thousand and one other attempts at making people act, even think in a certain way. This would be less objectionable - no less ridiculous, but less objectionable - if they attempted to do this only within their own ranks, but they don't. As sure as my arse points downwards, each and every time a religion thinks that it can control the behaviour of those outwith its own group, it will try to do so. Only three or four years ago, the established state church in England (not to mention all the other religious groupings sticking their snouts in likewise) was exerting pressure to prevent same-sex couples from getting married, even though this was a wholly secular, civil affair which had absolutely nothing whatever to do with them at all. Despite this, the staunch conviction of some that their entirely brain-bound idea of deity disapproved of equal marriage led them to attempt to scupper the government's plans to make it a reality. Thank goodness they failed - but that didn't stop them trying. Many, many other places in the world are not nearly as fortunate.

If religion really were in any way comparable to art this wouldn't be the case. It would be recognised that these are subjective matters hanging upon individual taste and inclination; I like this, you like that, we can discuss why I like this and why you don't, and come to an opposite but amicable conclusion to the matter. For the most part each side leaves each other alone: admirers of traditionalist representational art tend not to come to blows with votaries of abstract art, for example, or vice versa. I'm willing to listen to any evidence but I think I'm on firm ground in saying that nobody, anywhere, ever has put someone else's feet to the flames for liking Pound's Pisan Cantos over Pam Ayres. Religions rarely get to this stage, and if they do, it's after a very very long period of having their teeth pulled by increasing secularism. Religions can't have it both ways, though needless to say they will try at any and every opportunity. Either they dictate how people behave based on a belief in external, objective deities and its assumed likes and dislikes, or it's more like an opinion on the value of formalist poetry over vers libre. It's either "You should/shouldn't do this because this or that interpretation of what I think exists - but can never demonstrate - says so", or it's "Well, whatever floats your potatoes, man", essentially, thereby giving up all and any pretensions of controlling people's behaviour. It can't be both.

Fictional characters in literature doing fictional things in fictional settings are indeed worthy of serious academic study; but there's a consensus that they're fictional characters. I will be the first one to applaud when religionists come to that self-same conclusion.

I'd agree with you: my view is that theology is relevant in terms of cultural and social history doesn't extent to the idea that what these theologies claim is necessarily true: thus I see all claims of the divine as being fallacious in one way or another and, like you, lacking in any supporting method or justifiable authority.

The stance of some elements in Christianity towards homosexual people is utterly abhorrent in this day and age irrespective of what they think their theologies prescribe.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #130 on: January 10, 2017, 07:38:55 PM »
It seems to me that you have deliberately misunderstood ippy's  OP for reasons known only to you (though I have strong suspicions) in order to create a straw man  to attack him with. And as a consequence , me.
Also you are misunderstanding SusanDoris , why?

I'm begining to think N S gets the posts mixed up and it looks like that's the problem and if you try to explain that you're being asked to explain things that you haven't expressed in the first place, either that or we may have used every day English that most people understand.

ippy

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #131 on: January 10, 2017, 07:39:06 PM »
The stance of some elements in Christianity towards homosexual people is utterly abhorrent in this day and age irrespective of what they think their theologies prescribe.
No disagreement from me there: but remember that for these people, if it's in the book, it's in the book and it's there for all time. If it comes from a god, either directly or via humans, it makes no difference; it's what the creator says, end of. The plain text is there, no ifs or buts or maybes; and the only way to get around the truly obnoxious bits and to continue to live freely as a member of a civilised society is to play the "interpretation" card and say that it doesn't actually mean what it plainly says, it says what I think it means it says.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7928
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #132 on: January 10, 2017, 08:34:58 PM »
I'm begining to think N S gets the posts mixed up and it looks like that's the problem and if you try to explain that you're being asked to explain things that you haven't expressed in the first place, either that or we may have used every day English that most people understand.

ippy

English ain't your strong point.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #133 on: January 10, 2017, 09:12:24 PM »
ad,

Quote
English ain't your strong point.

Do you really want to criticise someone else's use of English?

Here's you in Reply 102:

"(theology in the academic sense is mearly a branch of philosophy)"
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2017, 10:59:10 PM »
English ain't your strong point.
ooh, that was a mistake.

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #135 on: January 10, 2017, 11:07:25 PM »
It sure was!
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #136 on: January 10, 2017, 11:21:20 PM »
No disagreement from me there: but remember that for these people, if it's in the book, it's in the book and it's there for all time. If it comes from a god, either directly or via humans, it makes no difference; it's what the creator says, end of. The plain text is there, no ifs or buts or maybes; and the only way to get around the truly obnoxious bits and to continue to live freely as a member of a civilised society is to play the "interpretation" card and say that it doesn't actually mean what it plainly says, it says what I think it means it says.

But how can you interpret it without studying it? Whether or not the content is obnoxious shouldn't affect whether people are able to study it.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #137 on: January 10, 2017, 11:36:40 PM »
There is no reason why anyone shouldn't study what interests them;  the argument is that it should not be state funded.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #138 on: January 11, 2017, 12:30:09 AM »
There is no reason why anyone shouldn't study what interests them;  the argument is that it should not be state funded.

V close.

ippy

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64333
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #139 on: January 11, 2017, 08:20:06 AM »
I'm begining to think N S gets the posts mixed up and it looks like that's the problem and if you try to explain that you're being asked to explain things that you haven't expressed in the first place, either that or we may have used every day English that most people understand.

ippy
. You know it warms the cockles of my kidneys to be talked about as a derail, but I would suggest that if you want to make arguments and have discussion, then you do it about the subject. And if you want to talk about anything I've written that you disagree with that you give examples because otherwise it's just you having borrowed the assertatron for a little test drive.


And the plain English thing, you know with the best will in the solar system, it's merely a version of the courtier's reply.  Try and make arguments, ipsissimus, and get over this personalising schtick.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64333
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #140 on: January 11, 2017, 08:23:40 AM »
Apologies if this has been picked up already, but as I understand it Theology these days is taught at undergraduate level pretty much as RE is taught at school level - essentially "this is what various peoples believe and why". Which seems fine to me.

Divinity on the other hand is more "this stuff is true" in character. Whether universities should teach as true subjects they have no method to demonstrate to be true is another matter - on the one hand the libertarian in me says "why not?", but on the other if public funding is involved then I'd view it in the same way I think as I view the NHS funding homeopathy. 

(Cue Nearly asking "so is Eng Lit methodologically "true" either?" but ok...)
the predictive argument function on your device is malfunctioning. I'm not the one on this thread arguing that things should be true to be of significant interest. And since my position on this is essentially the same as your's, the argument wouldn't apply.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:27:46 AM by Nearly Sane »

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5038
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #141 on: January 11, 2017, 08:28:20 AM »
... the argument is that it should not be state funded.

How totalitarian.

Since undergraduates now pay about £30,000 for the privilege of becoming a graduate, why assume that it is "state funded".
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #142 on: January 11, 2017, 08:33:52 AM »
Indeed.

Even if the financial arrangement were that the state funds all courses, that does not mean that the state should be able to dictate what can and cannot be studied.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64333
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #143 on: January 11, 2017, 08:43:35 AM »
A thesis I've often seen advanced, by some atheists and some liberal-minded believers alike, is that a feeling for religion is akin to an appreciation for art in much the way you suggest here, Gordon.

It always comes from deeply well-meaning people who show every sign of completely having failed to follow this idea through to its logical conclusion. This stems from overlooking, accidentally or deliberately, a rather salient fact: religions - especially "organised" and monotheistic ones - seek to control people's behaviour. They attempt to dictate what they do, what they wear, what they eat and when they eat it, who is a permissible sexual partner, all this and a thousand and one other attempts at making people act, even think in a certain way. This would be less objectionable - no less ridiculous, but less objectionable - if they attempted to do this only within their own ranks, but they don't. As sure as my arse points downwards, each and every time a religion thinks that it can control the behaviour of those outwith its own group, it will try to do so. Only three or four years ago, the established state church in England (not to mention all the other religious groupings sticking their snouts in likewise) was exerting pressure to prevent same-sex couples from getting married, even though this was a wholly secular, civil affair which had absolutely nothing whatever to do with them at all. Despite this, the staunch conviction of some that their entirely brain-bound idea of deity disapproved of equal marriage led them to attempt to scupper the government's plans to make it a reality. Thank goodness they failed - but that didn't stop them trying, because of their conviction that their idea of a god's likes and dislikes trumps anything as mundane as equal civil rights. Many, many other places in the world are not nearly as fortunate.

If religion really were in any way comparable to art this wouldn't be the case. It would be recognised that these are subjective matters hanging upon individual taste and inclination; I like this, you like that, we can discuss why I like this and why you don't, and come to an opposite but amicable conclusion to the matter. For the most part each side leaves each other alone: admirers of traditionalist representational art tend not to come to blows with votaries of abstract art, for example, or vice versa. I'm willing to listen to any evidence but I think I'm on firm ground in saying that nobody, anywhere, ever has put someone else's feet to the flames for liking Pound's Pisan Cantos over Pam Ayres. Religions rarely get to this stage, and if they do, it's after a very very long period of having their teeth pulled by increasing secularism. Religions can't have it both ways, though needless to say they will try at any and every opportunity. Either they dictate how people behave based on a belief in external, objective deities and their assumed likes and dislikes, or it's more like an opinion on the value of formalist poetry over vers libre. It's either "You should/shouldn't do this because this or that interpretation of a supposedly immaterial entity that I think exists - but can never demonstrate - says so", or it's "Well, whatever floats your potatoes, man", essentially, thereby giving up all and any pretensions of controlling people's behaviour. One or the other: it can't be both.

Fictional characters in literature doing fictional things in fictional settings are indeed worthy of serious academic study; but there's a consensus that they're fictional characters which doesn't exist in the same arena when it comes to religion. No doubt there are exceptions, but theologians presumably think that their endless lucubrations actually have some referent to some real state of affairs somewhere and somehow (though they're notably silent when it comes to explaining how this is supposed to work). There's not the same agreement that what is being discussed is imaginary and imaginative as there is in literature. I will be the first one to applaud when religionists come to that self-same conclusion.

And we'll have a damned sight more peaceful a world for it as well.

This reads Luke the opposite of those who argue by analogy, e.g. DNA  is like a code so it has a designer. The point being made by Gordon is that we teach things that do not have as basis in truth so that theology might not have a basis in truth is no sensible reason not to study it. That it is not like literature in all of ays in mi way addresses that, since the specific point of the analogy against the specific argument based on 'facts'.

The rest of your post seems a complete non sequitur to the discussion.

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #144 on: January 11, 2017, 08:50:04 AM »
I'd say that there are aspects of theology that are just as human.
Are there any aspects which are not?!





quote]
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #145 on: January 11, 2017, 08:56:20 AM »
This reads Luke the opposite of those who argue by analogy, e.g. DNA  is like a code so it has a designer.

Well of course it's the opposite, since that particular analogy is woeful.
Quote
The point being made by Gordon is that we teach things that do not have as basis in truth so that theology might not have a basis in truth is no sensible reason not to study it. That it is not like literature in all of ays in mi way addresses that, since the specific point of the analogy against the specific argument based on 'facts'.

The rest of your post seems a complete non sequitur to the discussion.
My post was a response to Gordon's comparison with literary fiction - he agreed with me so presumably understood the point and didn't consider it a non sequitur. If you do, not my problem.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64333
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2017, 08:59:12 AM »
In which post did I state how it 'should be' studied?
Edited to add that when I said how it is studied is irrelevant, I mean that theology is in the end to do with God, so lack of evidence for that means that it is 100% human ideas etc etc which are being studied.In the end Theology is a house of cards! Okay, that is not well expressed, but it's the best I can do in a hurry!
Except you gave been agreeing with ippy that it shouldn't be a university subject. That's surely taking an opinion on how it should be studied?

And you keep on harking back to a soecifuc dictionary definition, rather than looking at how it's studied so you are both prescribing the way you think it is actually taught because of the definition, and saying it cannot actually be taught the way it is because of that definition. Indeed the whole use if a specific definition is very similar to those who say 'It's just a theory' as regards evolution ignoring the specific meaning in science.



Quote
For me, a progressive move away from theism would indicate a growing confidence in provable (not 100% of course) a far better understanding of reality, of the vast amount of knowledge available to us today on the facts about the sciences, and a better understanding of the total lack of facts about anything supernatural..
Which is not affected by understanding what and how people believe. You actually seem to want to ignore some of the facts that we would generally accept, e.g. that theism is an important aspect of billions of peoples' lives and is therefore is significant in understanding the world. Again going back to the earlier example, which I appear not to have explained d fully,  we study Marxism the belief, despite it not being about facts, it's about opinion. Yes, we know Marx existed, but the equivalent is that we know theists exist. The belief has been subject to change, interpretation but not facts in the same way theism is. This is not because of Marxism being supernatural but because you can't get an ought from an is.



SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #147 on: January 11, 2017, 09:01:47 AM »
  I'm not the one on this thread arguing that things should be true to be of significant interest.
Could you point me to the post where this is argued?


The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64333
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #148 on: January 11, 2017, 09:02:48 AM »
Well of course it's the opposite, since that particular analogy is woeful.My post was a response to Gordon's comparison with literary fiction - he agreed with me so presumably understood the point and didn't consider it a non sequitur. If you do, not my problem.
It's a non sequitur because of what I spargued, and you have ignored. Using analogy badly either way is a mistake about what analogy is useful for. You are making the opposite error from the argument by analogy, and it's just as illogical approach. Do f you don't consider arguments against you position to be in anyway 'your problem' , it gives you an easy walk at any time from discussion.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64333
Re: Theology at Universities?
« Reply #149 on: January 11, 2017, 09:05:26 AM »
Could you point me to the post where this is argued?
You have spent the entire thread arguing that theology is not worthy of study because it doesn't have a fact at its core.