Theology at Universities?

[Walter]

Free T V licence later this year, does that make me a mere spring chicken?

ippy

I've never bought one , what does that make me?

[SusanDoris]

Free T V licence later this year, does that make me a mere spring chicken?

ippy

Well,I suppose that when one reaches 80, it is just the teensiest bit difficult to be referred to as a 'spring chicken' but we must do our best!

[Samuel]

Whilst I think most of us know the history of the origins of our universities, I don't think their history bears any relevence to the following; it should be timely to start calling time on theology as a suitable subject for universities now, only if we're going to continue with theology, there might just as well be courses on Astrology, Tarot reading or Witch Hunting; none of them really subjects worthy of serious study, any more.

I wouldn't expect subjects like theology etc, to dissapear overnight but their gradual decline should be releasing valuable space and funding, all be it gradually, for more science and other productive subjects and the remaining followers of these old ideas have still got their oganisations that should be able to follow up with assisting any of those wishing to continue with them and at the same time seperate them from any of the present state funding.

Ippy

As soon as you start to make judgements about this knowledge being worthy and that knowledge being unworthy you being to undermine the very purpose of a university.

The whole point of unfettered discourse and research is that you never know where the useful / important discoveries or ideas are going to come from. Better to give space and nourishment to free thought. If you choose to curtail it, where do you stop?

[SusanDoris]

As soon as you start to make judgements about this knowledge being worthy and that knowledge being unworthy you being to undermine the very purpose of a university.

The whole point of unfettered discourse and research is that you never know where the useful / important discoveries or ideas are going to come from. Better to give space and nourishment to free thought. If you choose to curtail it, where do you stop?

What theologians do or do not believ, or whatever they are teaching or discussing, they have zero knowledge about any God/god/s which are at the core of the subject of theology.

[ippy]

As soon as you start to make judgements about this knowledge being worthy and that knowledge being unworthy you being to undermine the very purpose of a university.

The whole point of unfettered discourse and research is that you never know where the useful / important discoveries or ideas are going to come from. Better to give space and nourishment to free thought. If you choose to curtail it, where do you stop?

Sam, if you have another read, my coments were more to do with where the funding of any godly subject came from, because the god stuff is in exponential decline here in the U K and is now at only 49% believers, so really it might be better for them if they organised their own colleges or whatever and run them in their own time at their own expence.

The above is to do with funding and then if they want to run and fund their own colleges on a denominational basis I can't think of any reason, other than the former, to object to theology being studied as a subject at our universities.

Just as an after thought, I can't see any important dicoveries or usefull ideas comming out of the study of theology, more shades of the Mongolian Horseman closed culture syndrome, but you never know?

ippy

[Nearly Sane]

Sam, if you have another read, my coments were more to do with where the funding of any godly subject came from, because the god stuff is in exponential decline here in the U K and is now at only 49% believers, so really it might be better for them if they organised their own colleges or whatever and run them in their own time at their own expence.

The above is to do with funding and then if they want to run and fund their own colleges on a denominational basis I can't think of any reason, other than the former, to object to theology being studied as a subject at our universities.

Just as an after thought, I can't see any important dicoveries or usefull ideas comming out of the study of theology, more shades of the Mongolian Horseman closed culture syndrome, but you never know?

ippy

do you see important or useful ideas coming from the study of poetry?

[ippy]

do you see important or useful ideas coming from the study of poetry?

The same as my previous post, you never know.

I'm a great fan of Stevie Smith, atheist one minute and godaholic the next, such an ordinary person from ordinary Palmers Green.

ippy

[Nearly Sane]

The same as my previous post, you never know.

I'm a great fan of Stevie Smith, atheist one minute and godaholic the next, such an ordinary person from ordinary Palmers Green.

ippy

So as with your previous post then you that  that anyone interested in poetry should 'run and fund it on their own'?

[Rhiannon]

There's not much use for Anglo-Saxon these days. We don't want to waste public money on that shit. Better just forget it and concentrate in offering degrees in tourism and leisure, unless the Anglo-Saxons stump up the cash for it.

[ippy]

So as with your previous post then you that  that anyone interested in poetry should 'run and fund it on their own'?

What do you think?

ippy

[ippy]

There's not much use for Anglo-Saxon these days. We don't want to waste public money on that shit. Better just forget it and concentrate in offering degrees in tourism and leisure, unless the Anglo-Saxons stump up the cash for it.

It looks to me you haven't read my previous posts, Rhi.

ippy

[Brownie]

There's not much use for Anglo-Saxon these days. We don't want to waste public money on that shit. Better just forget it and concentrate in offering degrees in tourism and leisure, unless the Anglo-Saxons stump up the cash for it.

     Same for ancient Greeks I suppose.

Ippy, poetry is wonderful and literature is definitely worth studying, imo.
(Glad you are a Stevie Smith fan, I love "Not waving but drowning" (in a scary way).  She was quite an interesting character too.  Did you ever see the film on TV about her, with Glenda Jackson as Stevie and Mona Washbourne as her aunt?)

[SusanDoris]

do you see important or useful ideas coming from the study of poetry?

How can you compare the study of poetry with theology? The first is a branch of literature, understood as a human activity and not in any way the source of thousands of years of faith belief including worship , whereas Theology is all about what people have said, thought and, apparently, experienced of God/god/s.   

[Bubbles]

Susan, at one time the Open University Theology/Religion module was taught by atheists.  It may still be the case but I am not up to date with what goes on there.

Ninian Smart was an agnostic Professor of Theology.

I did a module on religion with the OU ( and passed level 2 degree level). You learnt about religion of various sorts, a bit like the teach it at schools now.

No belief was needed.

I haven't done the theology one though.

I would have thought Theology at university level would be a lot about history and where certain practices originated, what made them do things a certain way.

Rituals, how they came about. What was the thinking behind them.

Why the cloth of the alter changes colour, what the colours signify, where did it come from.

I'd find all  that quite interesting.

Yes some probably do go on to be ministers, but knowing how it's all put together and the people's thinking at the time would be interesting, and I disagree with Ippy.

I could be interested in all that, without necessarily believing anything, just being interested that the belief exists.

I think you have to  just stop judging things for a minute and take an interest.

I think a lot would be lost, if it was removed. So much is part of our culture.

You do have to be able to stand back to be objective though.

[Harrowby Hall]

I have already clashed with ippy in this thread.

I fear that he does not understand the nature and purpose of the university. A university is a place of intellectual freedom where anything can be studied. The first sign of totalitarianism is interference with universities.

For reasons of efficiency, most universities limit the range of subject areas that are studied in them, but within a range of universities it should  be possible to find someone who can teach or supervise study in almost every imaginable subject area. There are plenty of subjects that offend my sensibilities but to deny someone the opportunity to investigate that subject is anathema to me.

[ippy]

I have already clashed with ippy in this thread.

I fear that he does not understand the nature and purpose of the university. A university is a place of intellectual freedom where anything can be studied. The first sign of totalitarianism is interference with universities.

For reasons of efficiency, most universities limit the range of subject areas that are studied in them, but within a range of universities it should  be possible to find someone who can teach or supervise study in almost every imaginable subject area. There are plenty of subjects that offend my sensibilities but to deny someone the opportunity to investigate that subject is anathema to me.

Hi there H H, yes we have our differences but on this subject where have I suggested on this thread that theology should be removed from the university syllabus?

The nearest I got to anything near to that was a suggestion that it could be downgraded as a small part of

a phillosophy course rather than a stand alone subject, (not using those exact words).

ippy

[ippy]

     Same for ancient Greeks I suppose.

Ippy, poetry is wonderful and literature is definitely worth studying, imo.
(Glad you are a Stevie Smith fan, I love "Not waving but drowning" (in a scary way).  She was quite an interesting character too.  Did you ever see the film on TV about her, with Glenda Jackson as Stevie and Mona Washbourne as her aunt?)

Lived 50 yards around the corner from where she lived.

Oh yes just have a scan at my post to H H, post 215.

ippy

[Harrowby Hall]

Hi ippy

And where do I say that you said Theology should be removed?

I said "interference".

And differentiating the conditions under which a particular subject is studied, compared with other subjects, is interference.

[ippy]

Hi ippy

And where do I say that you said Theology should be removed?

I said "interference".

And differentiating the conditions under which a particular subject is studied, compared with other subjects, is interference.

Well as things have progressed and religion, overall, is a minority persuit here in the U K now, there becomes even  less demarnd for it in any form, so whilst not completly chucķing it out, it could be worth the occasional historical reference from time to time under the philosophy heading and in some of other areas it might be of use, possibly for comparrison.

Not so much an interference more a revision and putting theology into a more appropriate place.

ippy

Your words implied I wish to deny people the opportunity to study subjects I don't care for; I plainly didn't.

[ippy]

I did a module on religion with the OU ( and passed level 2 degree level). You learnt about religion of various sorts, a bit like the teach it at schools now.

No belief was needed.

I haven't done the theology one though.

I would have thought Theology at university level would be a lot about history and where certain practices originated, what made them do things a certain way.

Rituals, how they came about. What was the thinking behind them.

Why the cloth of the alter changes colour, what the colours signify, where did it come from.

I'd find all  that quite interesting.

Yes some probably do go on to be ministers, but knowing how it's all put together and the people's thinking at the time would be interesting, and I disagree with Ippy.

I could be interested in all that, without necessarily believing anything, just being interested that the belief exists.

I think you have to  just stop judging things for a minute and take an interest.

I think a lot would be lost, if it was removed. So much is part of our culture.

You do have to be able to stand back to be objective though.

Rose I haven't even suggested removing theology from universities, if you read my posts you will soon understand where I'm comming from,  (Not guilty of that one Rose).

Ippy

[Brownie]

Whilst I think most of us know the history of the origins of our universities, I don't think their history bears any relevence to the following; it should be timely to start calling time on theology as a suitable subject for universities now, only if we're going to continue with theology, there might just as well be courses on Astrology, Tarot reading or Witch Hunting; none of them really subjects worthy of serious study, any more.

I wouldn't expect subjects like theology etc, to dissapear overnight but their gradual decline should be releasing valuable space and funding, all be it gradually, for more science and other productive subjects and the remaining followers of these old ideas have still got their oganisations that should be able to follow up with assisting any of those wishing to continue with them and at the same time seperate them from any of the present state funding.

Ippy

It looks as though you are suggesting that, ippy, albeit gradually.

[ippy]

It looks as though you are suggesting that, ippy, albeit gradually.

Yes but only by stages in line with the declining numbers of people that can still imagine some credibility in theology.

Even then I think you'll find I suggested filing theology under the philosophy umbrella, so no Brownie I didn't suggest stopping it being taught about in our universities, (not guilty).

ippy

[Udayana]

Ah, yes, just making it hard to find? That should make sure only the really determined will take it...

[SusanDoris]

Yes but only by stages in line with the declining numbers of people that can still imagine some credibility in theology.

Even then I think you'll find I suggested filing theology under the philosophy umbrella, so no Brownie I didn't suggest stopping it being taught about in our universities, (not guilty).

ippy

Religious beliefs have formed a central part of world history too, so that would be a very important part of the subject coming under the umbrella of philosophy.  If religious authorities had to pay for the courses, maybe those taking them would investigate more closely whether the God/god/s which were originally, and unfortunately are still, believed in actually had any substance at all. The mature and rational understanding of such students would take a large step forward in human progress.

Not well said, but close enough.

[ippy]

Ah, yes, just making it hard to find? That should make sure only the really determined will take it...

It's not so much hiding theology but because theology has been put forefront as a university subject as it has been in the past for long enough, lends theology more credibility it can realistically command in these more enlightened times; so it would be far better to place, to place these subjects within a more secular level playingfield perspective, like including theology within the study of philosophy would in my opinion be the appropriate place for these subjects that have such a rapidly/evidentially declining following.

ippy