Humanism and atheism

[Rhiannon]

My daughter's GCSE class had a visit from a couple of blokes from the BHA who used the terms interchangeably. It's irritating enough when non-atheists do it. Why is it that it seems to escape most people that other kinds of atheism are available?

[Nearly Sane]

Yep. As an atheist who is very much not a humanist, I find it all a bit tedious.

[Shaker]

Yep. As an atheist who is very much not a humanist, I find it all a bit tedious.

Yeah, same 

Yes, there's a considerable overlap in practice, but for all that, they're still two distinct and discrete categories.

[Rhiannon]

It's a bit like witches and pagans - sometimes there's an overlap, sometimes not. You'd think BHA representatives would be mindful of the difference though.

[Nearly Sane]

It's a bit like witches and pagans - sometimes there's an overlap, sometimes not. You'd think BHA representatives would be mindful of the difference though.

Though it both simplifies things for their explanation and increases their numbers , so I can see the temptation.

[Shaker]

Though it both simplifies things for their explanation and increases their numbers , so I can see the temptation.

And I don't think you can credibly deny that in actual practice - in what I gather they call real life - humanism equals secular humanism equals atheism. How that state of affairs came about I don't know, since strictly speaking neither humanism nor secularism per se imply or mandate atheism. The great majority - I'd say almost all - of theists are secularists, for instance, sensu stricto. But a quick once-over of the BHA's manifesto/aims/whatever leaves you in no doubt that they're predicated squarely on a non-religious, atheistic worldview.

I doubt that there are many - if any - religious members of the BHA or the NSS either.

[SusanDoris]

My daughter's GCSE class had a visit from a couple of blokes from the BHA who used the terms interchangeably. It's irritating enough when non-atheists do it. Why is it that it seems to escape most people that other kinds of atheism are available?

Did they come from the London Head Office of BHA, or from a local group?

Since atheism means a lack of belief in any gods, there are not other, or different kinds of atheism, just people with individual views on everything else!

[Bramble]

Good to see you back Rhiannon. Don't disappear again!

I guess this comes down to our habit of trying to live in conceptual or linguistic boxes. Presumably the BHA see humanism as the default alternative to theism and wish to establish dominance within the brand, just as religious folk commonly seek to define their faith in their own image. I think humanism was originally a Christian thing; it just meant putting humans at the top of the pile.

[SusanDoris]

I doubt that there are many - if any - religious members of the BHA or the NSS either.

However, if those who are members pay subscriptions, then hoorah for them as they will be helping to promote those two groups and those who support them without being members themselves.

[Rhiannon]

Good to see you back Rhiannon. Don't disappear again!

I guess this comes down to our habit of trying to live in conceptual or linguistic boxes. Presumably the BHA see humanism as the default alternative to theism and wish to establish dominance within the brand, just as religious folk commonly seek to define their faith in their own image. I think humanism was originally a Christian thing; it just meant putting humans at the top of the pile.

Thanks, Bramble. 

Yes, I guess we are joiners, aren't we? There does seem to be an element of faith in humanism - it requires consensus and co-operation on the part of human beings and history doesn't really demonstrate that we are good at those.

[jeremyp]

And I don't think you can credibly deny that in actual practice - in what I gather they call real life - humanism equals secular humanism equals atheism.

Yes you can. Atheism is not believing in God(s). Humanism is a belief system that focuses on humanity rather than deities. These are not the same thing, although they are related.

 

But a quick once-over of the BHA's manifesto/aims/whatever leaves you in no doubt that they're predicated squarely on a non-religious, atheistic worldview.

I can believe that, much like the National Secular Society is pretty much atheist even though secularism and atheism are definitely not the same.

Personally, I will have nothing to do with either the BHA or the NSS.

[Shaker]

Yes you can. Atheism is not believing in God(s). Humanism is a belief system that focuses on humanity rather than deities. These are not the same thing, although they are related.

"Related" I guess meaning that that would probably be why I said "in actual practice" and then went on to say: "a quick once-over of the BHA's manifesto/aims/whatever leaves you in no doubt that they're predicated squarely on a non-religious, atheistic worldview."

I can believe that, much like the National Secular Society is pretty much atheist even though secularism and atheism are definitely not the same.

I wish I'd said that. Oh, whoops, I already did.

But hey, I only wrote what I intended to mean; what do I know.

[jeremyp]

"Related" I guess meaning 'that would probably be why I said "in actual practice"

No. You said they were the same thing in actual practice. Related is not "the same thing". I am related to my brother but "in what I gather they call real life - JeremyP equals JeremyP's brother equals JeremyP" is entirely false.

and then went on to say: "a quick once-over of the BHA's manifesto/aims/whatever leaves you in no doubt that they're predicated squarely on a non-religious, atheistic worldview."

And I agreed with you on that point but the BHA is not identical with humanism and neither is the BHA the sole authority on what humanism means.

But hey, I only wrote what I intended to mean; what do I know.

If you intended to mean that humanism and atheism are only related - not the same thing, then you didn't write what you intended.

[Shaker]

No. You said they were the same thing in actual practice.

By which I stand. "In actual practice", as opposed to strict dictionary definitions, the BHA (and NSS) are pretty well universally atheist groups. In principle nothing stops the most perfervid Christian joining either organisation, given the sensu stricto definitions of humanism and/or secularism. I'd be quite surprised if I found this actually to be the case, however.

[Rhiannon]

Isn't it that in practice a member of the BHA will be an atheist. But not all atheists are humanists. There's a few on here who aren't.

[jeremyp]

Isn't it that in practice a member of the BHA will be an atheist. But not all atheists are humanists. There's a few on here who aren't.

Also, not all humanists are atheists.

[jeremyp]

By which I stand. "In actual practice", as opposed to strict dictionary definitions, the BHA (and NSS) are pretty well universally atheist groups.

Unfortunately, your "actual practice" post referred to humanism as being "in actual practice" equal to atheism, not the BHA or the NSS and those two organisations are not the arbiters of what humanism means. My criticism of your post was based on what was in it and I apologise for not getting the telepathic message that by "humanism" you meant "BHA and NSS".

In principle nothing stops the most perfervid Christian joining either organisation, given the sensu stricto definitions of humanism and/or secularism. I'd be quite surprised if I found this actually to be the case, however.

I'm not quite sure what your point is with this remark. I've already said I agree with you about those two organisations .

[Walter]

Isn't it that in practice a member of the BHA will be an atheist. But not all atheists are humanists. There's a few on here who aren't.

yes, I think you can count me in that few Rhi.

[Rhiannon]

Also, not all humanists are atheists.

No, but I expect BHA members are, by and large.